Steve Bruce

[Dave J]

6 minutes ago, srsmithusa said:

TRO, I still think that while we most often disagree in our final perspective, our thought processes are similar.  I agree with this post, completely.  But you seem confident (I'm not sure where that confidence is coming from) that all those good and important things are being done.   In fact, I look at who starts, where they play, how they don't seem to be progressing, how there seems to be mismatch between the system employed and the player personnel selected and I see plenty of evidence that those good and important things are NOT being done.  I hope you are right.  New Years Day was great fun.  I just don't see the evidence that you do.

TBF, we are improved and better than we were when he took over, just not 15 months and a couple dozen million pounds better, IMO.

 But how much better than if RDM had stayed on ? Personally I figure we would be pretty much on a par - slightly better just not quite so boring.

[TRO]

2 hours ago, sidcow said:

Some people just don't know how to conduct themselves.  

you didn't have to harp on about it.

[srsmithusa]

3 minutes ago, Dave J said:

 But how much better than if RDM had stayed on ? Personally I figure we would be pretty much on a par - slightly better just not quite so boring.

I don't know how RDM would have made out.  But like you, I think we would be on a par, or slightly better.  But I also see that horse is out of the barn.  the more interesting question, and equally unknowable.... is would be be better off in 4 months if we made an intelligent change with a plan, now?   Again, ultimately unknowable, but IMO, it's worth gamble, again, just because the progress has been far too slow.   And what I think are the reasons why it's so slow, are fundamentally unchanged, even though the last game was a welcome aberration.

[Dave J]

2 minutes ago, srsmithusa said:

I don't know how RDM would have made out.  But like you, I think we would be on a par, or slightly better.  But I also see that horse is out of the barn.  the more interesting question, and equally unknowable.... is would be be better off in 4 months if we made an intelligent change with a plan, now?   Again, ultimately unknowable, but IMO, it's worth gamble, again, just because the progress has been far too slow.   And what I think are the reasons why it's so slow, are fundamentally unchanged, even though the last game was a welcome aberration.

The most sensible post you could imagine - thank you 

[striker]

3 hours ago, Rob182 said:

I didn’t say you had, but this was something that was repeated over and over, whenever the discussion of playoffs was brought up. So I’m just saying, at least we’ve got that monkey off our backs now.

Ah ok mate. Sorry for that. Misunderstood your post.

[HanoiVillan]

10 hours ago, Grasshopper said:

you‘ll have to ask Bach, Beethoven and a number of graveyard prowlers before you ask Brucian era conductor Sir Steve Hoofitlong

As of right now, we are 22nd out of 24 teams in the division in terms of number of long balls per match (https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/252/Tournaments/7/Seasons/6848/Stages/15177/TeamStatistics/England-Championship-2017-2018) - go to 'situational statistics - pass types - long balls per game'

[a m ole]

wow, we’ve scored only one less goal from open play than wolves, yet they have 14 from set pieces to our 6.

[Stevo985]

37 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

As of right now, we are 22nd out of 24 teams in the division in terms of number of long balls per match (https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/252/Tournaments/7/Seasons/6848/Stages/15177/TeamStatistics/England-Championship-2017-2018) - go to 'situational statistics - pass types - long balls per game'

Like I said earlier in the thread, this "hoof it" criticism is the easy, lazy, go to line for those criticising Bruce.

It's not actually true.

[vreitti]

1 hour ago, Stevo985 said:

Like I said earlier in the thread, this "hoof it" criticism is the easy, lazy, go to line for those criticising Bruce.

It's not actually true.

Perhaps we aren't hoofing all that much compared to other teams in the division, yet we have been hoofing plenty. Too much if you ask me. Others are obviously hoofing even more.  Does say a lot about the football being played in this league IMO. I'd also add to that, that there are surely teams playing with a traditional target man, where hoofing is in fact part of the tactic, whereas we do not have the personnel for such a style.

[omariqy]

1 hour ago, Stevo985 said:

Like I said earlier in the thread, this "hoof it" criticism is the easy, lazy, go to line for those criticising Bruce.

It's not actually true.

Agree. If anything we just aimlessly pass it around the back before losing it. The only games we haven't have been when other teams have come at us and we have exploited the space left. 

[Stevo985]

1 hour ago, vreitti said:

Perhaps we aren't hoofing all that much compared to other teams in the division, yet we have been hoofing plenty. Too much if you ask me. Others are obviously hoofing even more.  Does say a lot about the football being played in this league IMO. I'd also add to that, that there are surely teams playing with a traditional target man, where hoofing is in fact part of the tactic, whereas we do not have the personnel for such a style.

Well again like I said earlier, when teams like Millwall and Ipswich came to Villa Park, it showed what real hoof it teams are like.

If we played their kind of football there would be a **** riot.

[a m ole]

1 hour ago, vreitti said:

Perhaps we aren't hoofing all that much compared to other teams in the division, yet we have been hoofing plenty. Too much if you ask me. Others are obviously hoofing even more.  Does say a lot about the football being played in this league IMO. I'd also add to that, that there are surely teams playing with a traditional target man, where hoofing is in fact part of the tactic, whereas we do not have the personnel for such a style.

compare it to the Premier League then - wrk make 69 long balls per game.

Lower mid table and 2 more than Tottenham, one of the best sides in that division (although they make proportionately many more short passes).

[sne]

So is long ball and hoof the same thing?

Not trying to be smart or anything, honest question.

When I see say Chelsea or Spurs they often have a thought with their long ball and it isn't necessarily made by a player under pressure but rather by someone picking out a teammate with space.

But when say Stoke (not seen them much this season) or many Championship sides do it it is a bit more hit and hope. Obviously the quality of players plays a big part here.

For us I've felt the lack of movement and clear lines and patterns have been the reason behind many of our long balls rather than trying to find a specific teammate or to stretch play. But I guess shooting it vaguely in the direction of a target man kinda counts.

 

This is not really aimed at Bruce, been an issue almost since MON buggered off. And it makes us look sloppy even thou our passing % is not always that bad. (In large parts down to passing among the defenders in our own half)

[a m ole]

21 minutes ago, sne said:

So is long ball and hoof the same thing?

Not trying to be smart or anything, honest question.

When I see say Chelsea or Spurs they often have a thought with their long ball and it isn't necessarily made by a player under pressure but rather by someone picking out a teammate with space.

But when say Stoke (not seen them much this season) or many Championship sides do it it is a bit more hit and hope. Obviously the quality of players plays a big part here.

For us I've felt the lack of movement and clear lines and patterns have been the reason behind many of our long balls rather than trying to find a specific teammate or to stretch play. But I guess shooting it vaguely in the direction of a target man kinda counts.

 

This is not really aimed at Bruce, been an issue almost since MON buggered off. And it makes us look sloppy even thou our passing % is not always that bad. (In large parts down to passing among the defenders in our own half)

Good point, I think you'd have to see the percentage of those long balls completed to a team mate.

[sne]

23 minutes ago, a m ole said:

Good point, I think you'd have to see the percentage of those long balls completed to a team mate.

Yep.

And even then, like when we played with Gestede he might have won the header, but was totally isolated and probably only managed to direct it to a teammate 5 times for his entire stay here.

Is that a successful long ball?

Edited January 4, 2018 by sne

[Stevo985]

38 minutes ago, sne said:

So is long ball and hoof the same thing?

No. And I think that is the point.

We ARE a direct team. Too direct for my liking. But a hoof to me is an aimless ball forward. Which we do do, but nowhere near as often as people are making out. Compare that to, as I said above, teams like MIllwall and Ipswich who came to VP and hoofed it constantly. Big, huge hoofs from their centrebacks.

It's also something I think we've genuinely addressed as well, although again not to the extent I'd have liked. The sale of Baker and replacement with Terry is a huge factor. Baker was THE worst culprit of hoofing in our team, and Terry is better on the ball than any CB in the league.

Whether that was the intention there I don't know, but it has contributed to an improvement.

 

The final thing is that when we do hoof and go long, this is not an instruction from the manager, imo. I'm not saying it's not Bruce's fault. It is. But the hoof and long balls come from a lack of movement on the pitch. Again this is still Bruce's fault, I am not absolving him. I'm just making the distinction that i don't believe he sends the team out with instructions to play long balls. It's just a result of a lack of movement and, of course, sometimes it's a player's lack of passing ability or lack of calmness on the ball.

[sne]

1 minute ago, Stevo985 said:

No. And I think that is the point.

We ARE a direct team. Too direct for my liking. But a hoof to me is an aimless ball forward. Which we do do, but nowhere near as often as people are making out. Compare that to, as I said above, teams like MIllwall and Ipswich who came to VP and hoofed it constantly. Big, huge hoofs from their centrebacks.

It's also something I think we've genuinely addressed as well, although again not to the extent I'd have liked. The sale of Baker and replacement with Terry is a huge factor. Baker was THE worst culprit of hoofing in our team, and Terry is better on the ball than any CB in the league.

Whether that was the intention there I don't know, but it has contributed to an improvement.

 

The final thing is that when we do hoof and go long, this is not an instruction from the manager, imo. I'm not saying it's not Bruce's fault. It is. But the hoof and long balls come from a lack of movement on the pitch. Again this is still Bruce's fault, I am not absolving him. I'm just making the distinction that i don't believe he sends the team out with instructions to play long balls. It's just a result of a lack of movement and, of course, sometimes it's a player's lack of passing ability or lack of calmness on the ball.

Yep!

Very much how I feel as well.

[Dave J]

11 hours ago, Stevo985 said:

Like I said earlier in the thread, this "hoof it" criticism is the easy, lazy, go to line for those criticising Bruce.

It's not actually true.

Let's change " hoof" to boring & tedious. Better?

[Vive_La_Villa]

25 minutes ago, Dave J said:

Let's change " hoof" to boring & tedious. Better?

Lets change it to boring & tedious & 3 points.

[Dave J]

10 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

Lets change it to boring & tedious & 3 points.

It's been a lot more boring & tedious overall compared to the yield of points for the period he has been here - wouldn't you think ?