blandy Posted March 10, 2017 Moderator Share Posted March 10, 2017 1 minute ago, bobzy said: he'll be judged on winning things and maybe that's all most people care about but Arsenal have not once drifted out of the reckoning like almost every other top side has done during Wenger's tenure. Absolutely. He's had a brilliant career, his earlier teams were mesmerisingly good. They had that unbeaten season, they've managed to self fund a ground move while remaining a top 4 side. But they used to be regular top 2, their best days under Wenger were some time ago. It's like watching the Rolling Stones*, or someone, in a way. *I have no idea about this, as I haven't watched the Stones play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted March 10, 2017 Moderator Share Posted March 10, 2017 4 minutes ago, bobzy said: Fair play to him. Complete contrast to what we've been doing in recent seasons and, apparently, continue to do. But the lack of winning trophies is an issue, of course. Absolutely. What he has achieved is nothing short of remarkable, especially during the new stadium period. In fact, I would argue that what he has done in terms of building that club is without parrallel in post war football apart from Shank's at Liverpool. He is to be commended. But that doesn't detract from my original point which, I still think is accurate, even if I admire what he has achieved. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 Just now, blandy said: Absolutely. He's had a brilliant career, his earlier teams were mesmerisingly good. They had that unbeaten season, they've managed to self fund a ground move while remaining a top 4 side. But they used to be regular top 2, their best days under Wenger were some time ago. It's like watching the Rolling Stones*, or someone, in a way. *I have no idea about this, as I haven't watched the Stones play. They last finished 2nd... ...last season. I thought I'd take a look at his reign from 2000/01 onwards: 2000/01: 2nd (beaten in FA Cup final) 2001/02: 1st (FA Cup Winners) 2002/03: 2nd (FA Cup Winners) 2003/04: 1st 2004/05: 2nd (FA Cup Winners) 2005/06: 4th (beaten in CL final) 2006/07: 4th (beaten in League Cup final) 2007/08: 3rd 2008/09: 4th 2009/10: 3rd 2010/11: 4th (beaten in League Cup final) 2011/12: 3rd 2012/13: 4th 2013/14: 4th (FA Cup Winners) 2014/15: 3rd (FA Cup Winners) 2015/16: 2nd 2016/17: ...? Not bad at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted March 10, 2017 Moderator Share Posted March 10, 2017 1 minute ago, bobzy said: They last finished 2nd... ...last season. I thought I'd take a look at his reign from 2000/01 onwards: 2000/01: 2nd (beaten in FA Cup final) 2001/02: 1st (FA Cup Winners) 2002/03: 2nd (FA Cup Winners) 2003/04: 1st 2004/05: 2nd (FA Cup Winners) .. 2013/14: 4th (FA Cup Winners) 2014/15: 3rd (FA Cup Winners) 2015/16: 2nd 2016/17: ...? Not bad at all. It's not bad, He's been brilliant. My feeling is the FA Cup wins aren't rated the same by Champions league teams. We'd be over the moon to win it. Chelsea, Arsenal, Man U etc - they all put it in a distand third in their priorities, playing weakened sides etc. Despite last seasons 2nd place, they never were in the race, really. And it's the "not being in the race" and "always getting knocked out by the other boys" that's come to symbolise Arsenal. Their club has been spoilt by having him, he's been fantastic, and he's a very, very, good manager. The failing to win the League/CHampions league and failure to challenge for them for a long time is going to see the end of him at Arsenal, I'd imagine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulC Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 (edited) 14 minutes ago, TrentVilla said: Absolutely. What he has achieved is nothing short of remarkable, especially during the new stadium period. In fact, I would argue that what he has done in terms of building that club is without parrallel in post war football apart from Shank's at Liverpool. He is to be commended. But that doesn't detract from my original point which, I still think is accurate, even if I admire what he has achieved. Yes in many ways his a victim of his own success. I remember the days when Arsenal weren't that good after the double winning side of 71 and we were at least on a level playing field with them. Arsenal are mo different to clubs like Liverpool and Spurs, they gave no given right to winning leagues and European trophies. Edited March 10, 2017 by PaulC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 48 minutes ago, blandy said: It's not bad, He's been brilliant. My feeling is the FA Cup wins aren't rated the same by Champions league teams. We'd be over the moon to win it. Chelsea, Arsenal, Man U etc - they all put it in a distand third in their priorities, playing weakened sides etc. Despite last seasons 2nd place, they never were in the race, really. And it's the "not being in the race" and "always getting knocked out by the other boys" that's come to symbolise Arsenal. Their club has been spoilt by having him, he's been fantastic, and he's a very, very, good manager. The failing to win the League/CHampions league and failure to challenge for them for a long time is going to see the end of him at Arsenal, I'd imagine I think the F.A. Cup is still highly rated by them. Arguably not the League Cup (often weakened teams), but Man Utd fielded strong teams this time round. I agree with the second bold bit, but I think it's because they're literally always there. Man Utd, Liverpool, Chelsea... they've all spent time outside of the top 6. They've had seasons where they quite specifically have not been Champions League sides. Arsenal haven't. They're symbolised by a lack of success because they're the only team that is always playing at the top echelons of football yet rarely win the big trophies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOF Posted March 10, 2017 Moderator Share Posted March 10, 2017 Jayzus I knew they hadn't won the league in yonks but until I saw it written further up, I didn't realise they went a full 10 years without even coming 2nd. And even last year's 2nd should have an asterisk considering who beat them to the title. The fact they're the one constant in the top 4 should mean they're there to pick up the pieces when the opportunity presents itself. They've stopped being taken seriously by people as title contenders now I think. They'll either capitulate after February or they'll already be out of the race by then and put in a meaningless run of results. How a side can be so consistently good and at the same time not quite good enough is actually I imagine a fairly hard balance to strike, so well done Arsene. I think it was Aaron Eckhart who said it best when he was talking about Arsene Wenger. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodders0223 Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 4 hours ago, Dr_Pangloss said: He rigidly sticks to his way of doing things, he has a particular way of playing football which he will not deviate from, and a particular transfer 'philosophy' which again he will not deviate from. Despite having the resources he is very reluctant to try to sign 'world class' (or close to that level) players. He also clearly targets a particular type of player and signs, well, lots of them (especially in midfield). Interestingly, he seems reluctant to sign players who are genuine leaders on the football pitch, perhaps because he is scared that will undermine him. He is extremely predictable these days and will not learn from his mistakes, he is determined to make this 'approach' work, which is why Trent's point hold, he just simply wants to be proven right by running Arsenal like this. The same way he doesn't hire particular strong coaches or recent 'legends' Wenger just wants to do it Wenger's way. That much is obvious. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtsimonw Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 4 hours ago, bobzy said: They last finished 2nd... ...last season. I thought I'd take a look at his reign from 2000/01 onwards: 2000/01: 2nd (beaten in FA Cup final) 2001/02: 1st (FA Cup Winners) 2002/03: 2nd (FA Cup Winners) 2003/04: 1st 2004/05: 2nd (FA Cup Winners) 2005/06: 4th (beaten in CL final) 2006/07: 4th (beaten in League Cup final) 2007/08: 3rd 2008/09: 4th 2009/10: 3rd 2010/11: 4th (beaten in League Cup final) 2011/12: 3rd 2012/13: 4th 2013/14: 4th (FA Cup Winners) 2014/15: 3rd (FA Cup Winners) 2015/16: 2nd 2016/17: ...? Not bad at all. I actually didn't realise they'd struggled to finish top 2 that often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodders0223 Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 (edited) Arguably more embarrassing than the Bayern game this. 40 minutes in Kos and Xhaka looking rattled and on bookings. Giroud has had about 3 touches. Edited March 11, 2017 by rodders0223 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Pangloss Posted March 18, 2017 Share Posted March 18, 2017 Wenger's future is academic. Even he won't be stubborn enough to hold on after this season, fully expect him to bow out with dignity at the end of the season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtsimonw Posted March 18, 2017 Share Posted March 18, 2017 He has to really. Can't see Sanchez staying, nor them being able to replace him with anywhere near his quality. Ozil is a part timer, Mustafi and Xhaka have been awful. It's just not that good of a squad. Wenger cant be trusted to spend really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Pangloss Posted March 18, 2017 Share Posted March 18, 2017 26 minutes ago, kurtsimonw said: He has to really. Can't see Sanchez staying, nor them being able to replace him with anywhere near his quality. Ozil is a part timer, Mustafi and Xhaka have been awful. It's just not that good of a squad. Wenger cant be trusted to spend really. Two really awful signings by Wenger, costing, if some estimates are to be believed, a combined £70m. The worst thing is that it was fairly predicable that both of these signings would flop. Mustafi was solid for Valencia, but was not performing anywhere near at the level of a £35m centre half, he's just not that good, a solid centre back at best. Xhaka, well, never been very good IMO, no pace, no temperament and a total liability. Just utter shit signings. Lucas Perez was also a mystifying signing, a one season wonder at Depor, never particularly prolific at any of his other clubs, piss £17m up the wall and he has predictably been a shit waste of time for them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xela Posted March 18, 2017 Share Posted March 18, 2017 33 minutes ago, kurtsimonw said: Mustafi and Xhaka £70m or so for them two? Utterly shocking value 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Pangloss Posted March 18, 2017 Share Posted March 18, 2017 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Xela said: £70m or so for them two? Utterly shocking value I've seen £35m quoted for both although I've seen Xhaka's fee as 'low' as £30m. Edited March 18, 2017 by Dr_Pangloss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xela Posted March 18, 2017 Share Posted March 18, 2017 1 hour ago, Dr_Pangloss said: I've seen £35m quoted for both although I've seen Xhaka's fee as 'low' as £30m. Add Perez and Elneny and its best part of £100m No wonder he doesn't trust himself to spend more! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted March 18, 2017 Share Posted March 18, 2017 Wenger has one win away to Pulis teams in 9 seasons.... Arsenal used to beat West Brom for fun at the Hawthorns. Surely Arsenal should be spending training this week working on defending corners and set pieces given who they were coming up against and how good West Brom are at them. Why would I not be surprised if Arsenal just did the same drills as usual and concentrated on their own game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulC Posted March 18, 2017 Share Posted March 18, 2017 They probably did Chris as the Ox hinted at in his interview afterwards, the players just switched off. Ultimately its his responsibility but the players really let him down today. No fight, no speed about their game, zero chances created in the 2nd half. anyway he will announce his retirement soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maqroll Posted March 18, 2017 Share Posted March 18, 2017 (edited) On 3/10/2017 at 16:33, rodders0223 said: The same way he doesn't hire particular strong coaches I don't think I've ever seen Steve Bould with his arms uncrossed and out of his seat during a game, nor does he appear to have anything to convey to Wenger or the players. He just sits there like a garden gnome. Edited March 18, 2017 by maqroll Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maqroll Posted March 18, 2017 Share Posted March 18, 2017 Right, so who do you think will be the next manager at Arsenal? Simeone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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