Jump to content

PieFacE

Recommended Posts

Arsenal's luck in the champs league has been kind of really bad. These have been their opponent in the Round of 16 dating back to 2010. 

2017 - Bayern

2016 - Barca

2015 - Monaco

2014 - Bayern

2013 - Bayern

2012 - Milan 

2011 - Barca

2010 - Beat Porto then faced Barca and lost

They are really consistent at getting out of their group, but then they get paired against a club that ultimately makes it to the semis or the final and they naturally lose. The only match here that they could have won was against Monaco is 2015, but that was a good Monaco team. Arsenal don't spend like Bayern or Barca, so how can they expect to beat them? Arsenal's best players are Ozil and Sanchez, who both were deemed surplus by their clubs so therefor sold. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Czechlad said:

Arsenal's luck in the champs league has been kind of really bad. These have been their opponent in the Round of 16 dating back to 2010. 

2017 - Bayern

2016 - Barca

2015 - Monaco

2014 - Bayern

2013 - Bayern

2012 - Milan 

2011 - Barca

2010 - Beat Porto then faced Barca and lost

They are really consistent at getting out of their group, but then they get paired against a club that ultimately makes it to the semis or the final and they naturally lose. The only match here that they could have won was against Monaco is 2015, but that was a good Monaco team. Arsenal don't spend like Bayern or Barca, so how can they expect to beat them? Arsenal's best players are Ozil and Sanchez, who both were deemed surplus by their clubs so therefor sold. 

Yes the home performance against Monaco was shocking

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, VillaChris said:

Most of those draws have been because Arsenal have failed to win their CL group.

This year they did get unlucky getting Bayern after finishing 1st, in previous years they wouldn't have got that hard a draw.

This year they were definitely unlucky. I mean winning your group and still having to play Bayern? BUT in the 2016 champs league, they actually drew Bayern in their group so Arsenal finished 2nd. Below is a list of the toughest opponent Arsenal faces in the group stages of the champs league and where Arsenal finished. 

15-16 - Bayern (Finished 2nd in group)

14-15 - Dortmund (Again tied for 1st, but finished 2nd due to goal differential)

13-14 - Dortmund(Tied for 1st, but finished 2nd due to goal differential)

12-13 - Schalke (Finished 2nd)

11-12 - Marseille (Finished first)

10-11 - Shaktar Donetsk (Finished 2nd)

09-10 - Olympiacos (Finished first

 

So obviously some of these groups were really tough, and some were easier than others. Having to play Bayern and Dortmund in the group stage makes it really tough to finish first especially considering that was the Dortmund side that was reaching the finals of the champs league and winning their league. They still definitely underachieved at times though. 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

As so often, the truth is in the middle of the two extreme positions.

On the one hand, if you put the names of all the teams that qualified for the round of 16 since the last time they got through into a hat, and randomly drew names 100 times, not many out of the 100 draws would contain a harder group of fixtures. So on that level yes they clearly have been unlucky. 

But it's also true that a] they have partly been the architects of their own misfortune by regularly finishing 2nd in their group which naturally raises the average difficulty of opponent, and b] surely part of the whole thing about being contenders on the continental stage is that sometimes you have to beat difficult opposition in difficult games. I mean if, for some bizarre reason, Villa were entered into the tournament at the same stage each season, we'd have a similarly shit record, but then we wouldn't have a 60,000 seat stadium and Alexis Sanchez up front either. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Atletico Madrid have no problem knocking the likes of Barca and Munich out season in season out and they started at a much lower base than Arsenal.

It's all about mentality with Arsenal, they're just happy to qualify and play the group stages and never change their system/style for the knock outs.

They'd be a completely different beast under Allegri...if he gets the chance with them in the CL next season of course.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

55 minutes ago, VillaChris said:

Atletico Madrid have no problem knocking the likes of Barca and Munich out season in season out and they started at a much lower base than Arsenal.

It's all about mentality with Arsenal

Agreed completely.

Just because you play a better team every year (though they should be beating Monaco) doesn't mean you should always lose. They just seem to go in expecting defeat and give up as soon as they fall behind.

It's like Villa at Old Trafford. Is it acceptable to have only won once in 20+ years just because they've been better than us all of those years? No, it's a poor record. We've won at the Emirates, Stamford Bridge, etc. clubs that were far better than us in those seasons, so it's no excuse to just lose every time because the opposition were better.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, blandy said:

That's true. I think that Arsenal as a club seem quite happy to get in EuroLeague every year, rake in the money...rinse and repeat. They don't give the impression of being "all about winning". They've kind of settled for a version of ambition which doesn't really include winning anything big. It's in a way the same (but different) to the likes of Stoke or whoever just happy to finish somewhere mid table in the Prem.

Wenger wants to win, but not at the cost of adjusting the way the team plays and the club (admirably) follows a financial model that doesn't involve spending more than they get in, but they've fallen victim to now effectively aiming to get X amount of money via a top 4 finish and getting to the knockout stages of the Eurotelly league. And that's crept into the mentality of the players.

There's a lot to admire about Arsenal, from the sustainable way the club is run, to the way they've got a 60,000 seater stadium which they fill to the way they play the game, but the downsides are high prices and a not particularly good record of winning trophies given the way the club has become such a regular Champion league qualifier and top 4 finisher.

Going back years their fans always seemed a good bunch to talk to, but at the Cup final when we played them, or afterwards going back into London on the tube, their fans were mostly acting like knob heads and contrasted poorly with the Liverpool fans after the semi. They were brilliant.

I guess Wenger will leave and then they'll struggle for a bit to get the same consistency, but ultimately Wenger's best football was some time ago.

Personally, I think Wenger is less concerned with winning these days (as in winning the big trophies) and more interested in being proven right.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, TrentVilla said:

Personally, I think Wenger is less concerned with winning these days (as in winning the big trophies) and more interested in being proven right.

Winning would prove him right, so I disagree.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, blandy said:

Winning would prove him right, so I disagree.

He rigidly sticks to his way of doing things, he has a particular way of playing football which he will not deviate from, and a particular transfer 'philosophy' which again he will not deviate from. Despite having the resources he is very reluctant to try to sign 'world class' (or close to that level) players. He also clearly targets a particular type of player and signs, well, lots of them (especially in midfield). Interestingly, he seems reluctant to sign players who are genuine leaders on the football pitch, perhaps because he is scared that will undermine him. He is extremely predictable these days and will not learn from his mistakes, he is determined to make this 'approach' work, which is why Trent's point hold, he just simply wants to be proven right by running Arsenal like this. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, Dr_Pangloss said:

He rigidly sticks to his way of doing things, he has a particular way of playing football which he will not deviate from, and a particular transfer 'philosophy' which again he will not deviate from. Despite having the resources he is very reluctant to try to sign 'world class' (or close to that level) players. He also clearly targets a particular type of player and signs, well, lots of them (especially in midfield). Interestingly, he seems reluctant to sign players who are genuine leaders on the football pitch, perhaps because he is scared that will undermine him. He is extremely predictable these days and will not learn from his mistakes, he is determined to make this 'approach' work, which is why Trent's point hold, he just simply wants to be proven right by running Arsenal like this. 

But, as blandy says, he can't be "proven right" if it is, ultimately, unsuccessful?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, bobzy said:

But, as blandy says, he can't be "proven right" if it is, ultimately, unsuccessful?

I think Wenger is deluded enough to think that he eventually will be proven right. I guess where I'd modify Trent's point is that I do think Wenger wants success but only on his own terms (playing style and transfer strategy). Even if it's clear that changing how they play somewhat and signing better quality players of stronger character will deliver I do not believe Wenger will even entertain the idea. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

52 minutes ago, blandy said:

Winning would prove him right, so I disagree.

As is your right. But I don't really get the above or how it counters what I said. Him winning a big trophy his way wouldn't mean he had put doing so ahead of his philosophy.

But in my view if the Arsenal board said to him this summer "Here is £200m, buy the title" I don't think he would do it. 

I think he puts his philosophy ahead of winning the big trophies.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

54 minutes ago, Dr_Pangloss said:

He rigidly sticks to his way of doing things, :snip:he is determined to make this 'approach' work, which is why Trent's point hold, he just simply wants to be proven right by running Arsenal like this. 

I agree with all of that, except the last bit. As bobzy says, he can only be proven right by winning. Essentially, both you and Trent are able (with fair justification) to claim he is "wrong" because he isn't winning. If he were, then you'd have no case :)

6 minutes ago, TrentVilla said:

...in my view if the Arsenal board said to him this summer "Here is £200m, buy the title" I don't think he would do it. 

I think he puts his philosophy ahead of winning the big trophies.

Nor do I. I also don't think you can simply buy the title. Spending 90 million on Pogba etc. doesn't work. Arsenal in recent times have spent a fair amount of money, They have as Dr_P implies, not spent it well. I don't think there's much disagreement at all, other than I think he does want to win stuff, but isn't very good at it, whereas you guys seem to imply he isn't much concerned with winning. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

30 minutes ago, Dr_Pangloss said:

I think Wenger is deluded enough to think that he eventually will be proven right. I guess where I'd modify Trent's point is that I do think Wenger wants success but only on his own terms (playing style and transfer strategy). Even if it's clear that changing how they play somewhat and signing better quality players of stronger character will deliver I do not believe Wenger will even entertain the idea. 

I wasn't saying Wenger doesn't want to be successfulk, perhaps I worded it poorly, I certainly don't think that.

What I mean is that financial prudence and being proven right in his philosophy is more important than winning trophies, so if sacrificing his principles is what is required to be successful he will refuse to do it. I struggle to see how anyone could argue on that.

I guess you could perhaps say he was always that way but I think it has become more pronounced.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Case in point with Wenger, Kante.

Twice he could have signed him, by his own admission, once from France and then from Leicester.

He opted not to do so the first time as he didn't want to block Coquelin's progress and the second because he wouldn't compete with Chelsea financially. Both by his own admission.

That in my opinion is the most glaring example of a man who is putting his principles and philosophies ahead of a geniune full focus on winning trophies.

That isn't to say he doesn't want to win trophies, just to reitterate that, but to me it is absolutely clear that winning in and of itself isn't his primary driver, if indeed it ever really was.

Jose wants to win at any cost, Conte appears similar although in a more controlled manner. Wenger, not for me.

The same applies to his game management and his team, down to 10 men against Munich they should have shut up shop and limited the damage. But they either couldn't or he wouldn't do that and again that is in my view, further evidence of a man less about the result than how you get there.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, blandy said:

Nor do I. I also don't think you can simply buy the title. Spending 90 million on Pogba etc. doesn't work. Arsenal in recent times have spent a fair amount of money, They have as Dr_P implies, not spent it well. I don't think there's much disagreement at all, other than I think he does want to win stuff, but isn't very good at it, whereas you guys seem to imply he isn't much concerned with winning. 

Arsenal are still bloody competitive, let's face it.

This is a terrible season for them in which they've reached the League Cup QF, Champions League last 16, are 5th in the league with a game in hand on 4th (2 points ahead) and are still in the F.A. Cup.

Hitting those sort of heights season after season is still to be admired IMO.  Obviously, he'll be judged on winning things and maybe that's all most people care about but Arsenal have not once drifted out of the reckoning like almost every other top side has done during Wenger's tenure.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, TrentVilla said:

Case in point with Wenger, Kante.

Twice he could have signed him, by his own admission, once from France and then from Leicester.

He opted not to do so the first time as he didn't want to block Coquelin's progress and the second because he wouldn't compete with Chelsea financially. Both by his own admission.

That in my opinion is the most glaring example of a man who is putting his principles and philosophies ahead of a geniune full focus on winning trophies.

Fair play to him.  Complete contrast to what we've been doing in recent seasons and, apparently, continue to do.

But the lack of winning trophies is an issue, of course.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...
Â