Roberto Di Matteo

[Villarocker]

0-0, 1-1, 2-2 etc = still no improvement

1-0 = Meh

2-0 = About time

3-0 = I should think so, we spent £60m ffs

4/5/6-0 = We were lucky AND The Toon had an off day

[mikeyp102]

Well if fitness was a cause (I don't think it was), we'd have no excuse this weekend as we won't have had a midweek game whereas Newcastle will have

[markavfc40]

4 minutes ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

Absolutely. 

I stand by it wholeheartedly, they were visibly **** by 35. Either way the manager is at fault. 

It may well have been a bit of both and certainly from the time we scored us getting it wrong both tactically, certainly from the start of the second half, and also lacking fitness. Like you say either way it is down to the manager.

[dont_do_it_doug.]

I just want to clarify that I am in no way excusing the manager by saying it appeared to be a fitness issue. He then proceeded to fail to deal with the issue in game. Then we barely turned up against Ipswich. 

Basically, since Forest equalised he/we have been rotten and he bears the blame for that. But it is only a couple of games. 

[TrentVilla]

6 minutes ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

Absolutely. 

I stand by it wholeheartedly, they were visibly **** by 35. Either way the manager is at fault. 

I don't personally think it was fitness, they sat back after the first goal. Now we don't know if that was the managers decision or the players mentality, if it was the later it is the managers job to bellow from the touch line until they do as he wishes.

On the fitness thing, I agree a few were wrecked towards the end of the game but I put that down to the utter lack of shape we had and the huge gap between the defence and those with the hopeless task of chasing the long balls into the corners. Those that tried to link between the two and get up the pitch, most notably Amavi were knackered by the end of the game and I could see why, especially with him coming back from injury.

I personally don't think fitness was the problem.

[dont_do_it_doug.]

@TrentVilla I think we are agreeing that fitness towards the end of the game was definitely a contributing factor, whether that was as a result of a tactical decision or not is up for debate, regardless they should be fit enough by now to play whatever system he chooses. If they're not, that's entirely his fault. 

For a number of years I've noticed that our players seem to lack the necessary fitness to see games or even seasons out. Even under O'Neill, come the second half of the season we were absolutely ****. Whether he used his squads fully or not is irrelevant, they shouldn't have been so stretched individually. Now we appear still to be struggling in games come 80 minutes and it's not even October. 

It's unacceptable to me. There are going to be plenty of situations like Brentford where we are backed into a corner and we need to be able to keep running to the whistle and grinding them out. Or you can forget top half never mind the playoffs. 

Edited September 20, 2016 by dont_do_it_doug.

[TrentVilla]

6 minutes ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

@TrentVilla I think we are agreeing that fitness towards the end of the game was definitely a contributing factor, whether that was as a result of a tactical decision or not is up for debate, regardless they should be fit enough by now to play whatever system he chooses. If they're not, that's entirely his fault. 

For a number of years I've noticed that our players seem to lack the necessary fitness to see games or even seasons out. Even under O'Neill, come the second half of the season we were absolutely ****. Whether he used his squads fully or not is irrelevant, they shouldn't have been so stretched individually. Now we appear still to be struggling in games come 80 minutes and it's not even October. 

It's unacceptable to me. There are going to be plenty of situations like Brentford where we are backed into a corner and we need to be able to keep running to the whistle and grinding them out. Or you can forget top half never mind the playoffs. 

I agree but you have to take into consideration style of play and ball retention or lack of, we've spent the majority of the last 10 years chasing the ball and/or trying to hold on in games rather than retaining the ball and making the opposition work. Even in the 'good' times of O'Neill we played as a counter attacking side.

Ball retention is key and something we've been horrific at under a succession of managers.

I'm not sure it matters how fit you are, if you spend all your time running after the ball sooner or later physically or mentally you will tire.

For me its less about fitness and more about how you expend energy.

[bannedfromHandV]

I'm convinced it's a psychological issue that's holding us back, we've changed managers, players, backroom staff, non playing staff, even the owner now and still things aren't right.

I remember watching the forest game at 1-0 down and thinking how much of a lift it would be to turn it around and win, I then remember thinking, at 2-1 up how damaging it would be to go on and not win the game, which is of course what happened.

We are bereft of luck too, I think we can all agree on that. 

I just don't see it as being as simple as a fitness issue or poor tactics/team selection, I believe it runs much deeper.

The remedy of course is to start winning, but then that's the remedy to pretty much any football related issue.

[Woodytom]

12 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said:

I'm convinced it's a psychological issue that's holding us back, we've changed managers, players, backroom staff, non playing staff, even the owner now and still things aren't right.

If we've changed all those, where in your opinion is the psychological issue stemming from?

Here's a thought..... and I'm by no means saying THIS is the problem, but do we still play that God awful music as we come out? I haven't been for ages but that music, screached through those tinny speakers at villa park was far from uplifting. In fact i often remember realising that this was the start of a shit afternoon. 

I know it's cheesy but you go to Leicester and get kasabian - fire banging out and it just gives everybody in the ground a lift. I don't think I've ever been to villa and regardless of the result thought, wow what a great occasion..

Edited September 20, 2016 by Woodytom

[Grasshopper]

35 minutes ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

I just want to clarify that I am in no way excusing the manager by saying it appeared to be a fitness issue. He then proceeded to fail to deal with the issue in game. Then we barely turned up against Ipswich. 

Basically, since Forest equalised he/we have been rotten and he bears the blame for that. But it is only a couple of games. 

I distinctly remember Lambert going all defensive after being bitten.

not long after came a hammering then it was all downhill from there on in.

John Terry said that we were always shot after 60 or so mins.

Manager ultimately responsible, but surely the fitness coaches must have some sort of plan?

[Demitri_C]

45 minutes ago, mikeyp102 said:

Well if fitness was a cause (I don't think it was), we'd have no excuse this weekend as we won't have had a midweek game whereas Newcastle will have

I personally dont think rafa will play a strong side for this one

[Mantis]

2 minutes ago, Woodytom said:

If we've changed all those, where in your opinion is the psychological issue stemming from?

I can't speak for him but I've said before that I think it's something fundamental within the club. We've been on the decline for so long that the words "Aston Villa" have become associated with decline, failure and weakness. Even though we've changed all these things the club itself is still there and thus so too is the reputation. I honestly believe that this reputation is having a subconscious affect on both management and players. It's become a vicious circle now.

Leicester are kind of an example of the opposite. They had that amazing run at the end of the 14/15 season and when they were able to carry that on into the next season they got more and more confident.

I do think RDM has to shoulder a lot of the blame for the way we've started but people shouldn't be so dismissive of the psychological side.

[AntrimBlack]

It keeps being brought up, but with the changes we have made, it is inconceivable that there can be any connection with last year's mentality.

[dont_do_it_doug.]

19 minutes ago, TrentVilla said:

I agree but you have to take into consideration style of play and ball retention or lack of, we've spent the majority of the last 10 years chasing the ball and/or trying to hold on in games rather than retaining the ball and making the opposition work. Even in the 'good' times of O'Neill we played as a counter attacking side.

Ball retention is key and something we've been horrific at under a succession of managers.

I'm not sure it matters how fit you are, if you spend all your time running after the ball sooner or later physically or mentally you will tire.

For me its less about fitness and more about how you expend energy.

If you're playing that way every week then yeah, I get you. To be honest though, we weren't THAT stretched for most of the game. We were rubbish, but Brentford had maybe 55-60% of possession following our goal? We still got forward, created a few chances. 

Maybe I'm remembering a different game at this point, maybe we all are, but either way what I'm saying is that if the manager chooses to play that way and yet we're not fit enough to do so, either by accident or design, it's unacceptable. On that we agree. 

[AntrimBlack]

4 minutes ago, Mantis said:

I can't speak for him but I've said before that I think it's something fundamental within the club. We've been on the decline for so long that the words "Aston Villa" have become associated with decline, failure and weakness. Even though we've changed all these things the club itself is still there and thus so too is the reputation. I honestly believe that this reputation is having a subconscious affect on both management and players. It's become a vicious circle now.

Leicester are kind of an example of the opposite. They had that amazing run at the end of the 14/15 season and when they were able to carry that on into the next season they got more and more confident.

I do think RDM has to shoulder a lot of the blame for the way we've started but people shouldn't be so dismissive of the psychological side.

With respect, Mantis, I cannot see how that could be. The club is the owner, the management team and the players, and they have all been changed. The club is not an entity in itself, with it's own mentality.

[Michael118]

Absolutely it is a psychological issue. The difference between us and Leicester is Leicester have a manager who is a master of the psychological aspect of the game. We have had nobody who even comes close since Martin O'Neil left.

 

Edited September 20, 2016 by Michael118

[AntrimBlack]

44 minutes ago, Michael118 said:

Absolutely it is a psychological issue. The difference between us and Leicester is Leicester have a manager who is a master of the psychological aspect of the game. We have had nobody who even comes close since Martin O'Neil left.

 

We were discussing the mentality being with the club and associated with last year. You are talking about the managers abilities. Totally different discussion.

[dont_do_it_doug.]

1 minute ago, AntrimBlack said:

We were discussing the mentality being with the club and associated with last year. You are talking about the managers abilities. Totally different discussion.

Either way we simply don't know whether that's the case. 

We can argue that there's a trend forming, but it's not evident to me yet. It's just too soon. There has been zero continuity so the standard rules do not apply, a couple of the results (Wednesday and Huddersfield) are down to dumb luck IMO. Bristol beat us fair and square, we blew ourselves out. Forest scored two cracking goals, avoidable maybe but take nothing away from them. There is a case to be made that tactics not mentality caused the second, even if I think he was right to stick with them.

Brentford onwards, no argument. Two games however is not a trend. 38 games to put it right. 

[Mantis]

1 hour ago, AntrimBlack said:

With respect, Mantis, I cannot see how that could be. The club is the owner, the management team and the players, and they have all been changed. The club is not an entity in itself, with it's own mentality.

Read the rest of my post. Certain clubs (indeed most clubs) have certain "baggage" which can subconsciously impose itself on the people within the club. The baggage can of course be both good and bad. Right now the club itself as an institution is associated with weakness and failure and I don't think the effect of that should be downplayed.

[Demitri_C]

personally i dont think its same issues as last season for two factors

1) we are not consistently losing

2) since the new teams been formed we have only lost one game unless you want to count Wednesday opening game, showing we are not as big as pushovers as we were last year

I think once we start converting draws into wins we are seriously going to mean business in this league. Just think its a lil lack of confidence at the moment