Villa Park redevelopment

[The Fun Factory]

9 hours ago, sidcow said:

I'm not sure there's too much wrong with the infrastructure.

I mean the capacity of Villa Park in the 80's was 48,000 and we did get crowds of that size down there at least occasionally.

There was probably actually more reliance on Public Transport then as well as car ownership would have certainly been lower.

The problem seem to be with organisation and  e.g. numbers of trains and carriages.  Number of buses.

Sure both stations could do with improvements, probably platform lengthening and widening.    There needs to be more emphasis on spreading people down the platforms for certain.  Maybe a second entrance to Aston Station at the other end of the platform would help with that?

More matchday buses and police controlling the junctions again like they used to.

I know things have changed but I've been in a crowd of 48,000 at VP and it was all deemed OK back then.

I was looking at Twickenham recently.  In terms of setting it's not a million miles away from where we are and has a 75,000 capacity.  The underground is a pretty long distance away, 40 minutes walk or more (longer than the walk from VP to town) so they are mainly relying on buses and 2 mainline railway station - same as VP....and they are not right on the junction of a motorway either.

I think a few improvements at the railway stations are needed but overall it's about organisation and more buses/carriages.   We don't need complete revolution here.

Yes. We need to move people away from using the car getting to Villa Park if they can. Simon Inglis said in  a recent interview that both Spurs and Arsenal's new/newish stadiums have no more than 100 car parking spaces each. But they have an advantage of being in london where public transport has been invested in and not hacked to the bone like the rest of the country.

[OutByEaster?]

10 hours ago, sidcow said:

I mean the capacity of Villa Park in the 80's was 48,000 and we did get crowds of that size down there at least occasionally.

I think the area has probably changed a fair bit since then - in the 80's if you had two cars on the drive it was because you were rich and I'd imagine that parking in Aston was very simple with a whole lot less cars than there are today - nowadays, residents parking in Aston and Newtown can be difficult enough to find even on non-matchdays, you've got high density housing with houses that overwhelmingly don't have drives or garages. We don't now have as much in the way of space that isn't used or developed - it's a busier area than it once was and I think the place we're arriving in is very different to the way things were in the 80's. 

That increase in residual traffic and the reduction in public transport options makes things difficult - without more busses and more options for public transport it's hard to get people to leave the car at home, but the cars make it very difficult for additional busses and public transport to get to and from the ground. You could put on half a dozen busses to the city centre leaving from Witton Lane, but if it takes them an hour to get to Newtown, people aren't going to use them. If people have to wait forty minutes to make a journey that's slower than their car and still leaves them with a further journey to make once they get to where they're going, they're going to take the car.

What we really need is managed traffic - actual police at junctions overriding the normal priorities and signals and getting traffic through so that we can keep the roads clearer and make room for more busses - but that costs money that the police don't have and the council don't have.

I mean ideally we could do with less housing around the ground, but that's unrealistic, especially with a few hundred rabbit hutch apartments popping up next to the One Stop and just about every bit of land being looked at for more by profiteering developers - and ultimately it's a selfish thing to let a single cultural asset dictate the type of land use around it.

We need lots of little things I think - joined up thinking with the police moving traffic quickly so that adding busses becomes a possibility, better support from the rail authorities so that we can get more carriages and more trains onto the schedules, a wider area of restriction on matchday parking encouraging more people onto public transport, localised park-and-ride hubs for those people away from the area so that the bus they get after the game takes them somewhere safe where they can continue their journey home and better arrangements at the ground to encourage fans to arrive early and to stay for half an hour or an hour after games so that we don't get a concentrated bottleneck on the whistle.

It's a big puzzle and one that's made more so because the council own the roads, the police are financed by the public, the rail authority is publicly owned and privately operated by franchisees, the local people have lives to live and the football club brings the crowd but doesn't manage the city - all of which means that no one wants to pay to solve the puzzle - there's a question of who blinks first and is forced to open their wallet - we have a role to play in that by continuing to press the council, the mayor and all of those other democratically elected people who can change things.

 

[The Fun Factory]

Back in the day I used to go on the supporters coach and in the Lerner era they should to do a police escort out for all of the coaches to the motorway, which saved about half an hour. The club could do little things like that again to encourage people getting to the ground without using a  car. Putting on some shuttle buses to the city centre before and after the game would be a help as well. In the bundlesliga you get free public transport with your match ticket. That isn't something Villa could do by themselves but the premier league could well investigate that. Reducing carbon emissions must be a target for even football clubs.

[chappy]

2 minutes ago, The Fun Factory said:

Back in the day I used to go on the supporters coach and in the Lerner era they should to do a police escort out for all of the coaches to the motorway, which saved about half an hour. The club could do little things like that again to encourage people getting to the ground without using a  car. Putting on some shuttle buses to the city centre before and after the game would be a help as well. In the bundlesliga you get free public transport with your match ticket. That isn't something Villa could do by themselves but the premier league could well investigate that. Reducing carbon emissions must be a target for even football clubs.

Decent point this, went to the preseason game at Stoke and they did shuttle buses for villa fans with a police escort to the train station, got back v quickly after the match

[The Fun Factory]

I would like to know the proportion of fans who travel by car. When is the last time the clubs did a transport survey? I would take a wild guess and would say well over half. 

[Villa_Vids]

11 hours ago, The Fun Factory said:

1- its owned by UK Athletics and is their headquarters and 2- the transport infrastructure around the stadium is worse than Villa Park's.

If there was  massive piece of land available near the city centre the owners might be interested. I don't  think there is, and expanding Villa Park is the most sensible and cost effective way. Provided transport is sorted out and we effectively engage with local residents.

Not beyond the realms of possibility though. The council are still seeking a longer term plan for the stadium after the games, but surely it would have been very lucrative to have a local sport team using the stadium and providing funding? And also continuing the legacy of the stadium. Wyness and Xia would have been all over that IMO.

Re-transport infrastructure - that sounds fun for the games. I am guessing there is a temporary strategy to cope with that.

[OutByEaster?]

56 minutes ago, Villa_Vids said:

Not beyond the realms of possibility though. The council are still seeking a longer term plan for the stadium after the games, but surely it would have been very lucrative to have a local sport team using the stadium and providing funding? And also continuing the legacy of the stadium. Wyness and Xia would have been all over that IMO.

After the games it'll have a capacity of 18,000 with a running track around it. It's the home of UK athletics so the running track would have to stay. We'd have to buy it, knock it down and build something bigger and still end up with an horrendous atmosphere because of the track.

 

[sidcow]

8 hours ago, Villa_Vids said:

Not beyond the realms of possibility though. The council are still seeking a longer term plan for the stadium after the games, but surely it would have been very lucrative to have a local sport team using the stadium and providing funding? And also continuing the legacy of the stadium. Wyness and Xia would have been all over that IMO.

Re-transport infrastructure - that sounds fun for the games. I am guessing there is a temporary strategy to cope with that.

The continuing legacy of The Alexander stadium is as the UK's premier full time athletic stadium.  It hosts way more events than people think. 

It always hosts the British Athletics Championships and has a Diamond League meeting pretty much guaranteed as well. 

Throughout the year it hosts various opens, Midlands and National Athletics championships, schools championships and of course is the home track of Birchfield Harriers. 

There is probably some kind of athletics meet there every other weekend throughout the season, every week at times. 

My kids are both athletes and I've been there loads of times. My daughter would always beat her Birchfield Harriers oppo in the 100m then come second to her in the hurdles, every competition rinse and repeat

[Follyfoot]

8 hours ago, The Fun Factory said:

I would like to know the proportion of fans who travel by car. When is the last time the clubs did a transport survey? I would take a wild guess and would say well over half. 

All Vile come  by car because they all live miles away in the shires

 

 

mate

[Kingman]

If they open up the concourse after kick off for the 5.30pm game or a mini box park type/fan zone/extend the digbeth dining club etc then we solve circa 50% of the egress problem. 
 

For me In the short term that’s the quickest win till they chuck a load of money at it. 

Edited January 27, 2022 by Kingman

[PeterSw]

21 hours ago, blandy said:

plus more people lingering instead of racing for the station etc.

Think this is where Spurs have done well with their stadium. There seems to be quite a bit for home fans to after the game - stay for a drink in the bar and watch other games etc. Fans don't seem to be in a mad rush to get the first tube/train/bus home which helps break up congestion etc.

[The Fun Factory]

Just now, PeterSw said:

Think this is where Spurs have done well with their stadium. There seems to be quite a bit for home fans to after the game - stay for a drink in the bar and watch other games etc. Fans don't seem to be in a mad rush to get the first tube/train/bus home which helps break up congestion etc.

Problem is there are hardly any bars/pubs around Villa you would actually want to stay afterwards apart from the maybe the  Barton Arms. As there are so few trains everyone makes a quick dash after the game to join the queue before it gets ridiculous. Most of the area around Villa is either housing, takeaways or light industrial units.

[PeterSw]

2 minutes ago, The Fun Factory said:

Problem is there are hardly any bars/pubs around Villa you would actually want to stay afterwards apart from the maybe the  Barton Arms. As there are so few trains everyone makes a quick dash after the game to join the queue before it gets ridiculous. Most of the area around Villa is either housing, takeaways or light industrial units.

Agreed. Was thinking more long-term in that they could incorporate something with the new development plans. Like the sound of the box park idea too. This could have a similar impact

[The Fun Factory]

Due to the demographics who live in Aston/Witton it is hard to run any full time premises in which the main business is selling booze. That is why so many have closed in the last 20 years. Villa would have to see  if it cost effective in creating a box park. I would suggest it probably isn't. 

Edited January 27, 2022 by The Fun Factory

[PeterSw]

On a side note, its been great to hear all about the hundreds of different elements that go into these kind of ideas/developments.

Not just as simple as 'We want to build a new stand" "OK, go ahead".

[Chine]

34 minutes ago, PeterSw said:

Think this is where Spurs have done well with their stadium. There seems to be quite a bit for home fans to after the game - stay for a drink in the bar and watch other games etc. Fans don't seem to be in a mad rush to get the first tube/train/bus home which helps break up congestion etc.

Spurs have a new super smart stadium which no doubt is encouraging some of the locals to stay , they also have a lot of supporters from a wider area who go there and make a weekend of it so they are tending to hang around the novelty stadium afterwards, I’ve got a few mates who go and comeback with some silly fake cockney accent !! , our fans seem to be a lot more local based so rush off home picking up a takeaway and grabbing a quick pint on the way , not quite sure the after match offerings would work for us 

[sidcow]

32 minutes ago, The Fun Factory said:

Due to the demographics who live in Aston/Witton it is hard to run any full time premises in which the main business is selling booze. That is why so many have closed in the last 20 years. Villa would have to see  if it cost effective in creating a box park. I would suggest it probably isn't. 

Yeah its not going to fly.  Boxpark is open and busy every day, thats just not going to happen in Aston.

The best we can hope for is bigger and more welcoming Concourses.

I think the main problem though is getting back into Brum after night games.  No one has time to hang around even if they could as they need to get into town for last train or bus home.  

[Delphinho123]

11 hours ago, The Fun Factory said:

I would like to know the proportion of fans who travel by car. When is the last time the clubs did a transport survey? I would take a wild guess and would say well over half. 

More would come by train if it was a little easier to get to. 

I'm still banging the new, city centre stadium drum... as much as people hate the idea on here!

[Follyfoot]

52 minutes ago, The Fun Factory said:

Problem is there are hardly any bars/pubs around Villa you would actually want to stay afterwards apart from the maybe the  Barton Arms. As there are so few trains everyone makes a quick dash after the game to join the queue before it gets ridiculous. Most of the area around Villa is either housing, takeaways or light industrial units.

The Adventurers used to be rammed after the match

[villa4europe]

1 hour ago, Kingman said:

If they open up the concourse after kick off for the 5.30pm game or a mini box park type/fan zone/extend the digbeth dining club etc then we solve circa 50% of the egress problem. 
 

For me In the short term that’s the quickest win till they chuck a load of money at it. 

is the answer for me all day, give fans a reason to turn up before KO and hang around after

for me personally there is very little incentive to turn up at any time other than 1 minute before kick off and leave straight after the final whistle, 20k odd other people seemingly think the same