a m ole Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 (edited) if the awful event of No Deal happens, surely there no way the country will vote for that government in the next election? Edited January 17, 2019 by a m ole Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amsterdam_Neil_D Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, WhatAboutTheFinish said: a referendum I don't think any referendum will occur for a very long time for any question. I doubt I will see another one in my life time. If there was one on Brexit, can you imagine the campaign's and the violence that will come with it, people will get hurt and communities would be damaged and split. How could you even police it when it's so divided + there are people just waiting to cause havoc for personal gain so I urge caution on this idea. The questions to ask on the ballot would never be agreed either. Edited January 17, 2019 by Amsterdam_Neil_D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wainy316 Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 44 minutes ago, a m ole said: if the awful event of No Deal happens, surely there no way the country will vote for that government in the next election? The Conservatives could massacre a million babies and they'd still get voted in. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 3 hours ago, WhatAboutTheFinish said: The reason so few people are pushing for it is because in order for the Leave side to be able to come with their own plan they would need to be in a position to negotiate a deal on their terms with the EU, I must have missed when a remainer was in charge of the DexEU 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Amsterdam_Neil_D said: If there was one on Brexit, can you imagine the campaign's and the violence that will come with it, people will get hurt and communities would be damaged and split. How could you even police it when it's so divided + there are people just waiting to cause havoc for personal gain so I urge caution on this idea. The questions to ask on the ballot would never be agreed either. The country is already almost irreparably divided now; MPs abused in the street on their way to work and an MP was murdered in cold blood in the middle of the ref campaign in 2016. Not doing the right and sensible thing because the far right might riot means they have won. Edited January 17, 2019 by StefanAVFC 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Risso Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 7 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said: The country is already almost irreparably divided now; MPs abused in the street on their way to work and an MP was murdered in cold blood in the middle of the ref campaign in 2016. Not doing the right and sensible thing because the far right might riot means they have won. One far right nutter killing somebody doesn't mean the country is irreparably divided, any more than it does when a Muslim nutter decides to stab somebody or run them down in the street. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted January 17, 2019 Moderator Share Posted January 17, 2019 9 minutes ago, Risso said: One far right nutter killing somebody doesn't mean the country is irreparably divided, any more than it does when a Muslim nutter decides to stab somebody or run them down in the street. Agreed This whole narrative is stupid. Yes, the far right has been enabled. Whichever way this goes. A deal, No Deal or Remain it will not put the genie back in the bottle, they will have a reason to act they way they do with whichever result. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhatAboutTheFinish Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 23 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said: I must have missed when a remainer was in charge of the DexEU I must have missed when the person in charge of DexEU was actually responsible for the UK's negotiating position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 (edited) 40 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said: I must have missed when a remainer was in charge of the DexEU I knew you were going to get the answer to this post that you got. Sadly, what you are witnessing is the beginning of the 'Remainers stabbed us in the back' dolchstosslegende. EDIT: I suppose this post may be considered somewhat incendiary, so I should make clear that I'm not personally accusing @WhatAboutTheFinish of being a far-rightist; however, that is who will be using and promulgating this talking point in the weeks ahead. Edited January 17, 2019 by HanoiVillan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post desensitized43 Posted January 17, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted January 17, 2019 19 minutes ago, Risso said: One far right nutter killing somebody doesn't mean the country is irreparably divided, any more than it does when a Muslim nutter decides to stab somebody or run them down in the street. No it doesn't but you also have a bunch of people using inflammatory language like "betrayal", "enemies of the people" and talking about "civil war". The whole thing is a tinderbox waiting for the match right now. One side are getting angrier because they feel they've won the argument and aren't being listened to. The other side are getting angrier because they feel their hard-won rights are about to be taken away and they are going to be materially poorer because the government are pandering to a bunch of closet (and not so closet) racists. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amsterdam_Neil_D Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 50 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said: The country is already almost irreparably divided now; MPs abused in the street on their way to work and an MP was murdered in cold blood in the middle of the ref campaign in 2016. Not doing the right and sensible thing because the far right might riot means they have won. You are 100% correct but we are where we are. I suspect both sides will create havoc, there is no middle ground. They have to be careful here, Poll tax, target the Government, fair enough. Brexit, differnet and far more toxic to the brains of normal people IMO. MP's will be protected this time to the max, they need to think of themselves first after all. There is the nagging doubt also, nobody knows what the result will be and the chaos this will create. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post tonyh29 Posted January 17, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted January 17, 2019 12 minutes ago, bickster said: Agreed This whole narrative is stupid. Yes, the far right has been enabled. Whichever way this goes. A deal, No Deal or Remain it will not put the genie back in the bottle, they will have a reason to act they way they do with whichever result. the far right was enabled years ago by a systemic (perceived at least) policy of ignoring the "average " working person , long before Brexit was even an annoying buzz word .. Crime and immigration suddenly became the topics dominating the news , , suddenly all the parties were falling over themselves to be the "tough on immigration" party and the "British jobs for British workers" party .. when the labour MP campaigning in Crewe was putting out leaflets asking "What do you think is the biggest problem facing the area?" and offering "immigration" as a tick box reply you know society is in trouble My overall experience is that the country on the whole has become way more tolerant , my generation went to predominantly white schools , our friends were all white ... now my regular circle of friends includes Iranians , Indians , Syrians , South Africans , more European nations than the British have fought against , heck even Northerners ... My daughter started a new school in September , her new circle of "bestest " friends has more nationalities than a Benneton advert , it doesn't even occur to her that this is even a thing and rightly so ... kids are growing up judging you on what music you listen to (lucky for you @bicksteryou aren't at school ) and what clothes you wear .... your skin or religion doesn't even come into the equation but as Risso said , 1 MP gets killed by a nutter and the view is that the UK has lurched right ..Some people are quick to point out that we are being brainwashed by the media or by Russia and then push their own views given to them them by their independent freethinking websites that don 't focus on the negatives and force their agendas on them , no sir none whatsoever Britain was more broken , more divided under Thatcher than it ever is now , it's just the vocal minority have taken over the asylum and demand we listen to them .. and bizarrely we seem happy to 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhatAboutTheFinish Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 20 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: I knew you were going to get the answer to this post that you got. Sadly, what you are witnessing is the beginning of the 'Remainers stabbed us in the back' dolchstosslegende. EDIT: I suppose this post may be considered somewhat incendiary, so I should make clear that I'm not personally accusing @WhatAboutTheFinish of being a far-rightist; however, that is who will be using and promulgating this talking point in the weeks ahead. WTAF reconciled himself to the fact that Brexit wasn't going to happen a long time ago so there'll be no accusations of back stabbing from me (except when talking about Gove of course!). The timeline has very much been Remainers were in charge, Remainers are in charge, Remainers will be in charge. I don't think that's overtly controversial (or far-rightest! ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 Having been critical of May a few days ago because of her apparent reluctance to reach out to the Labour front bench, I have to question what on earth Corbnyn is playing at with the 'rule out no deal or we won't even talk to you' stance. Well, I know what he's playing at - he's trying to give himself a reason to say that it's her fault that he wasn't able to even consider sitting down with her but it does rather confirm that getting out of this mess is of much less importance to him than trying to find a way to another election and it also suggests that he wouldn't be the best person to head up any sort of negotiation on behalf of the UK. They're both rubbish. At this moment, I'm not sure who is more so. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 2 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: but as Risso said , 1 MP gets killed by a nutter and the view is that the UK has lurched right Literally nobody said that. And you know I wouldn't make such a black and white statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 3 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: Britain was more broken , more divided under Thatcher It's good to see all the hard work of VT to bring a brother to the cause has not been in vain. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted January 17, 2019 Moderator Share Posted January 17, 2019 3 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: the far right was enabled years ago by a systemic (perceived at least) policy of ignoring the "average " working person , long before Brexit was even an annoying buzz word .. Crime and immigration suddenly became the topics dominating the news , , suddenly all the parties were falling over themselves to be the "tough on immigration" party and the "British jobs for British workers" party .. when the labour MP campaigning in Crewe was putting out leaflets asking "What do you think is the biggest problem facing the area?" and offering "immigration" as a tick box reply you know society is in trouble My overall experience is that the country on the whole has become way more tolerant , my generation went to predominantly white schools , our friends were all white ... now my regular circle of friends includes Iranians , Indians , Syrians , South Africans , more European nations than the British have fought against , heck even Northerners ... My daughter started a new school in September , her new circle of "bestest " friends has more nationalities than a Benneton advert , it doesn't even occur to her that this is even a thing and rightly so ... kids are growing up judging you on what music you listen to (lucky for you @bicksteryou aren't at school ) and what clothes you wear .... your skin or religion doesn't even come into the equation but as Risso said , 1 MP gets killed by a nutter and the view is that the UK has lurched right ..Some people are quick to point out that we are being brainwashed by the media or by Russia and then push their own views given to them them by their independent freethinking websites that don 't focus on the negatives and force their agendas on them , no sir none whatsoever Britain was more broken , more divided under Thatcher than it ever is now , it's just the vocal minority have taken over the asylum and demand we listen to them .. and bizarrely we seem happy to I'm in broad agreement with the first, second and fourth paragraphs, though I think you've misunderstood the nature of democracy and debate in the third. PS - I was in charge of the Record Player in school, I was ok 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 1 minute ago, WhatAboutTheFinish said: WTAF reconciled himself to the fact that Brexit wasn't going to happen a long time ago so there'll be no accusations of back stabbing from me (except when talking about Gove of course!). The timeline has very much been Remainers were in charge, Remainers are in charge, Remainers will be in charge. I don't think that's overtly controversial (or far-rightest! ) I think it is controversial, not least because it's an extremely incomplete picture. What actually happened is that there was a party leadership election in the wake of the referendum, and the most prominent Leavers failed to agree on a unity candidate who could beat May. That was their key opportunity. Then May announced a bunch of red lines, none of which were necessarily indicated in the actual vote itself, and many of which actually contradicted things said during the campaign, all in an attempt to please the Leave-supporting right of the party. She also balanced her Cabinet between Leavers and Remainers, and placed three prominent Leavers in the most directly-relevant offices of state. Finally, she herself is clearly personally committed to leaving the EU. So I think the idea that Leavers have lacked adequate representation in the process is a] mostly untrue, and b] largely their own fault to the extent that it is true. And while you may not agree with them at all, this line is going to be being used by the far right. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhatAboutTheFinish Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 7 minutes ago, bickster said: PS - I was in charge of the Record Player in school, I was ok Off topic but in my school they made me hand out glasses of lactose based drink whilst wearing a giant bull’s head. Yeah, I was the Milk Minotaur. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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