The now-enacted will of (some of) the people

[blandy]

5 minutes ago, MakemineVanilla said:

Was freedom of movement a founding principle in the Treaty of Rome.

No, of the single market.

[MakemineVanilla]

1 minute ago, blandy said:

No, of the single market.

I looked it up.

It was.

[Risso]

I'm 79% out, according to Blandy's quiz thing, and that's how I used my postal vote.

[MakemineVanilla]

16 minutes ago, Risso said:

I'm 79% out, according to Blandy's quiz thing, and that's how I used my postal vote.

You should think again.

German economic hegemony now stretches from the Atlantic ocean to the Black Sea and it is only a matter of time before the Merkel's Reich takes the Ukraine, Turkey and Georgia, and the Russians will be cut off from their naval base in the Crimea and will be blocked from any access to the Mediterranean. 

Merkel holds more territory than any other European leader since Napoleon and for a longer.

It won't be long before Germany's dominance is complete and Merkel and her puppets will be able to bring any country to its knees, which defies the will of the German people.

Once the Germans have established Europe as a military force, which Juncker has already demanded, they will be able to blockade the UK at will and starve us into submission.

Better to bow down now when their terms are reasonable, than wait for an uncertain future when they might not be so friendly. 

[Risso]

1 hour ago, MakemineVanilla said:

You should think again.

German economic hegemony now stretches from the Atlantic ocean to the Black Sea and it is only a matter of time before the Merkel's Reich takes the Ukraine, Turkey and Georgia, and the Russians will be cut off from their naval base in the Crimea and will be blocked from any access to the Mediterranean. 

Merkel holds more territory than any other European leader since Napoleon and for a longer.

It won't be long before Germany's dominance is complete and Merkel and her puppets will be able to bring any country to its knees, which defies the will of the German people.

Once the Germans have established Europe as a military force, which Juncker has already demanded, they will be able to blockade the UK at will and starve us into submission.

Better to bow down now when their terms are reasonable, than wait for an uncertain future when they might not be so friendly. 

Is it possible for one to retract a postal vote then?

But if what you say comes to pass, the IOM can just offer to hide all their gold for them, so we'll be OK.

[blandy]

15 hours ago, MakemineVanilla said:

I looked it up.

It was.

Ah. OK. Ta.

[Stevo985]

Blandy's quiz says I'm 73% in

[chrisp65]

[Xann]

22 hours ago, MakemineVanilla said:

The German minimum wage (€8.51) is lower than the UK minimum wage of (€9.5). 

It offers evidence that the EU does not promote the interests of low paid workers or protect them from exploitation, national governments do.

Quote

Indices Difference
Consumer Prices in United Kingdom are 16.13% higher than in Germany
Consumer Prices Including Rent in United Kingdom are 22.29% higher than in Germany
Rent Prices in United Kingdom are 39.84% higher than in Germany
Restaurant Prices in United Kingdom are 41.45% higher than in Germany
Groceries Prices in United Kingdom are 18.18% higher than in Germany
Local Purchasing Power in United Kingdom is 18.81% lower than in Germany

Numbeo

[ccfcman]

22 hours ago, MakemineVanilla said:

The thing which provides the most protection for low-skilled workers from the downward pressure on wages from immigration is the minimum wage.

Although many EU countries passed minimum wage legislation, as did New Labour in 1998, some countries, the most notable being Germany, did not have a minimum wage until very recently (Jan '15).

It seems likely that the Germans were prompted to introduce the minimum wage in acknowledgement that an influx of immigrants from the so-called A8 countries was pushing down low-skilled German workers' wages.

The German minimum wage (€8.51) is lower than the UK minimum wage of (€9.5). 

It offers evidence that the EU does not promote the interests of low paid workers or protect them from exploitation, national governments do.

 

I'm Irish but I live in Berlin.

In comparison to another European capital city - London, our cost of living is much lower. According to Numbeo Zurich (European number 1) for example has a COL Index of 130.99, London is 94.82 (Birmingham 75.52) and Berlin a cosy 66.34 - 31% lower. Of the top 15 cities only Aberdeen, London and Reykjavik are in the EU (for now).

Not only that it's happier here too. Mercer's Quality of Living Survery (Worldwide) lists 6 German cities in the top 20 happiest places to live. Number 1 is Vienna with a rating of 108.6 Berlin ranks "poorly" at 14th - 105. London - 40th - 101.

It's a happier place where your money goes further. It's almost as if that's what we look for in life.

So while the minimum wage may be lower here it also serves to prove that governments can control their own matters too. The supposition that immigrants are affecting German wages is nonsensical. We literally earn much less if equally qualified.

[MakemineVanilla]

47 minutes ago, Xann said:

Numbeo

That explains why it is lower then; I did wonder.

It is what they call (p)urchasing (p)ower (p)arity.

It is notable that when GDP per capita is measured nominally and compared with ppp, in Germany the ppp is higher and in the UK it is lower than the nominal figure - which bears out your figures.

According to the IMF the UK's GDP per capita (2015) is higher than Germany's, but as you point out, the UK shares it out less equally and what we are allowed to share buys less.

Thanks.

[MakemineVanilla]

1 hour ago, ccfcman said:

I'm Irish but I live in Berlin.

In comparison to another European capital city - London, our cost of living is much lower. According to Numbeo Zurich (European number 1) for example has a COL Index of 130.99, London is 94.82 (Birmingham 75.52) and Berlin a cosy 66.34 - 31% lower. Of the top 15 cities only Aberdeen, London and Reykjavik are in the EU (for now).

Not only that it's happier here too. Mercer's Quality of Living Survery (Worldwide) lists 6 German cities in the top 20 happiest places to live. Number 1 is Vienna with a rating of 108.6 Berlin ranks "poorly" at 14th - 105. London - 40th - 101.

It's a happier place where your money goes further. It's almost as if that's what we look for in life.

So while the minimum wage may be lower here it also serves to prove that governments can control their own matters too. The supposition that immigrants are affecting German wages is nonsensical. We literally earn much less if equally qualified.

Could you explain that a bit more.

I know Germany had a tradition of paying different rates depending on who you are (married men used to get more); does that still happen?

And do they pay foreigners less?

 

[ccfcman]

48 minutes ago, MakemineVanilla said:

Could you explain that a bit more.

I know Germany had a tradition of paying different rates depending on who you are (married men used to get more); does that still happen?

And do they pay foreigners less?

 

It's actually a big no no to discuss earnings or at least, it is stipulated in every contract that intra-company discussion of wages is prohibited. No one earns the same in companies. I work in engineering and while my German isn't tremendous my English (and Irish mind) is fluent/native. I would have assumed previously that this was highly advantageous but it doesn't bare fruit as I'd hoped. With a decade of experience I earn less than a German chap with 5 years experience with much less complex systems I am used to dealing with. I guess they like to look after their own in that regard. I reckon if I think logically about it, would an Irish employed prefer to pay say, a Polish worker less than an Irish one? I think we can all agree the answer is by and large a yes.

Of course being an EU citizen, we're posh immigrants - ex-pats if you will. So it could be much much worse. There's a million refugees here and they aren't getting anywhere near the opportunities we are.* For non EU citizens, Norwegians and Swiss for example, there are already labour laws in place so they can work as freely as an EU citizen. 

*For what it is worth, the issues in Köln during Sylvester were blown way out of proportion. Farage is a sinister little shite for speaking about it that way he does. Yes, certainly it was an issue but extremely isolated all things being consider. As far as I am aware, it still hasn't been confirmed that any of the recent arrivals had any part to play in this. It was a saddening episode with some very serious allegations, Germans expect and enjoy a certain level of comfort and safety. It's all very easy going on the streets. But the backlash in non German media against refugees fleeing ISIS being a pile of rapists is an absolute non story here. The narrative surrounds misogyny and entitlement culture.

[MakemineVanilla]

13 minutes ago, ccfcman said:

It's actually a big no no to discuss earnings or at least, it is stipulated in every contract that intra-company discussion of wages is prohibited. No one earns the same in companies. I work in engineering and while my German isn't tremendous my English (and Irish mind) is fluent/native. I would have assumed previously that this was highly advantageous but it doesn't bare fruit as I'd hoped. With a decade of experience I earn less than a German chap with 5 years experience with much less complex systems I am used to dealing with. I guess they like to look after their own in that regard. I reckon if I think logically about it, would an Irish employed prefer to pay say, a Polish worker less than an Irish one? I think we can all agree the answer is by and large a yes.

Of course being an EU citizen, we're posh immigrants - ex-pats if you will. So it could be much much worse. There's a million refugees here and they aren't getting anywhere near the opportunities we are.* For non EU citizens, Norwegians and Swiss for example, there are already labour laws in place so they can work as freely as an EU citizen. 

*For what it is worth, the issues in Köln during Sylvester were blown way out of proportion. Farage is a sinister little shite for speaking about it that way he does. Yes, certainly it was an issue but extremely isolated all things being consider. As far as I am aware, it still hasn't been confirmed that any of the recent arrivals had any part to play in this. It was a saddening episode with some very serious allegations, Germans expect and enjoy a certain level of comfort and safety. It's all very easy going on the streets. But the backlash in non German media against refugees fleeing ISIS being a pile of rapists is an absolute non story here. The narrative surrounds misogyny and entitlement culture.

One of my relations works for a German company and is always complaining about perks and payments his German colleagues get, which the Brits don't.

The Köln thing was always a bit suspect and was exploited across the political spectrum.

I have seen some interviews on German channels with women who were groped but there is a surprising shortage of footage showing it, being that everyone has a camera-phone these days.

Thanks for your reply.

[ccfcman]

Just now, MakemineVanilla said:

One of my relations works for a German company and is always complaining about perks and payments his German colleagues get, which the Brits don't.

The Köln thing was always a bit suspect and was exploited across the political spectrum.

I have seen some interviews on German channels with women who were groped but there is a surprising shortage of footage showing it, being that everyone has a camera-phone these days.

Thanks for your reply.

Like many things in life, you gotta know the score. There's so many little tricks and ways about things here. The bureaucracy is something else but a quick chat to a local mate will have you elected. For example if you didn't know any better, you'd take a day off mid week to move house right? In Germany you get a "comfort day" for this. Straight up paid day off to move home. It is generally in your contract but if you're Deutsch is a bit Sheiße you wouldn't know any better. Lots of these kinds of things and some much more implicit such as the glaring differentiation in remuneration. 

[MakemineVanilla]

9 minutes ago, ccfcman said:

Like many things in life, you gotta know the score. There's so many little tricks and ways about things here. The bureaucracy is something else but a quick chat to a local mate will have you elected. For example if you didn't know any better, you'd take a day off mid week to move house right? In Germany you get a "comfort day" for this. Straight up paid day off to move home. It is generally in your contract but if you're Deutsch is a bit Sheiße you wouldn't know any better. Lots of these kinds of things and some much more implicit such as the glaring differentiation in remuneration. 

When I go to Germany it always reminds me how British I am.

The best thing about going to Germany is that you find out all those things which we are told must happen here, like 24 hr shopping, don't happen there.

The best laugh is when the Germans assume your German is a lot worse than it actually is, and talk about you while you sit there and pretend to look oblivious.

[mjmooney]

5 hours ago, ccfcman said:

It's actually a big no no to discuss earnings or at least, it is stipulated in every contract that intra-company discussion of wages is prohibited. 

I would imagine that that is totally unenforceable. It certainly would be in Britain. I did once work for a company where we were told not to discuss salaries amongst ourselves. Everybody ignored it. 

[Risso]

1 hour ago, mjmooney said:

I would imagine that that is totally unenforceable. It certainly would be in Britain. I did once work for a company where we were told not to discuss salaries amongst ourselves. Everybody ignored it. 

It's easily enforced by having a confidentality clause in the contract, and stating that is one aspect covered by it.  It's also easily got round though if you're a lady, as discussing salary to see if there is sex discrimination in respect of pay is allowed.  So, a bit of both!

[chrisp65]

The trick for the employer is to convince every employee to keep quiet about salary as they have been given a special deal.

 

[Davkaus]

I remember working at a company for 4-5 years, being promoted a couple of times, and taking over another team, working longer hours than my reports, having more responsibility, and having the same technical knowledge as I pitched in when our team was overworked, then finding out two of my subordinates earned a good 25% more than me. That was when it sunk in that companies will happily take the piss if they can manage to keep salaries secret.