The now-enacted will of (some of) the people

[tonyh29]

1 minute ago, Rob182 said:

This is where I am. The scaremongering on both sides is unbearable, and you're right that it brings out the worst in people. I've had odd looks from people from both camps, just by offering an alternative opinion to theirs.

If you've considered to vote leave then you're 'only doing it because of immigrants'. If you've considered to vote stay then it's because 'our economy will fall apart if you don't'.

The truth is that no one knows exactly what will happen, but too many people are getting on their high horses, on both sides, stating exactly what will happen and how bad it will be if we do/don't leave.

this is 2106 , anyone  can read a 140 words on twitter and become a leading authority on the subject

it's kinda proving to a degree that democracy doesn't work , entrenched views , voting one way because X campaigns for a different way , scaremongering , ignorance  , moral superiority , people going against all their principles for political gain  ...

we'd be better off just having a penalty shoot out , The Germans can take penalties for the remain side  in a huge stroke of irony

 

 

[tonyh29]

6 minutes ago, Chindie said:

hinting it could be spent on the NHS

this does annoy me  , take something that for reasons unfathomed to mankind people hold as their number one issue and make everything about it

 

Vote Stay and we can protect our NHS the greatest health system in the world and all those hard working Doctors and nurses

Vote Leave and we can give more money to our NHS the greatest health system in the world and all those hard working Doctors and nurses

they aren't hard working , they all have enough spare time to go marching up and down the streets waving placards and you can go into the worlds greatest health care system with a nose bleed and come out dead with meticillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus

 

In or out has probably zero impact on the NHS or  terrorism for that matter  , it's just distracting from proper issues that should be debated 

[Genie]

I'm struggling to pick side TBH.

I think that control of the borders is important and also having control over legislation that effects us.

Then on the other hand, working for a multinational company I can see the value on trade that being in gives.

 

[snowychap]

33 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

of course if these people can't register in 12 months (or however long they had)  , whose to say they are likely to get to the voting booth on time

They got there on bloody time.

They had up until the deadline, got there before the deadline and the registration process failed.

 

[MakemineVanilla]

2 minutes ago, Genie said:

I'm struggling to pick side TBH.

I think that control of the borders is important and also having control over legislation that effects us.

Then on the other hand, working for a multinational company I can see the value on trade that being in gives.

 

The trade argument has been exaggerated.

The value of the pound against the euro fluctuates greater than the protectionist tariffs the EU will impose.

The logic of joining the ERM was supposed to prevent such fluctuations but it didn't, it prompted them.

[Genie]

1 minute ago, MakemineVanilla said:

The trade argument has been exaggerated.

The value of the pound against the euro fluctuates greater than the protectionist tariffs the EU will impose.

The logic of joining the ERM was supposed to prevent such fluctuations but it didn't, it prompted them.

I agree, for the second point (trade) I'd image we'll re-establish all deals and markets without too much trouble, I guess that makes me sway more towards an out vote.

[Chindie]

9 minutes ago, Genie said:

I'm struggling to pick side TBH.

I think that control of the borders is important and also having control over legislation that effects us.

Then on the other hand, working for a multinational company I can see the value on trade that being in gives.

 

It's unlikely the border situation will change. We aren't going to leave the single market and that comes with free movement.

[limpid]

4 minutes ago, Genie said:

I agree, for the second point (trade) I'd image we'll re-establish all deals and markets without too much trouble, I guess that makes me sway more towards an out vote.

As long as you realise that any trade deal with the EU is likely to come with the same conditions including freedom of movement.

[tonyh29]

9 minutes ago, limpid said:

As long as you realise that any trade deal with the EU is likely to come with the same conditions including freedom of movement.

 

Switzerland voted to end this freedom of movement in 2015  , of course the  EU have kinda said  over our dead body   ... but there is a deadline of Feb 2017 to get some sort of agreement ( extended to March 2017 in the event the Swiss govts website crashes ) in place .

As it stands the Swiss will probably lose the argument but I wonder if potentially having the UK and then possibly then Norway etc adding weight to these discussions could have any impact ?

[tonyh29]

27 minutes ago, snowychap said:

They got there on bloody time.

They had up until the deadline, got there before the deadline and the registration process failed.

 

please highlight in Bold purple ink Tahoma font the part where I said they registered late  

[Chindie]

7 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

 

Switzerland voted to end this freedom of movement in 2015  , of course the  EU have kinda said  over our dead body   ... but there is a deadline of Feb 2017 to get some sort of agreement ( extended to March 2017 in the event the Swiss govts website crashes ) in place .

As it stands the Swiss will probably lose the argument but I wonder if potentially having the UK and then possibly then Norway etc adding weight to these discussions could have any impact ?

Switzerland's treaties with the EU in essence outline agreements that more or less replicate full membership of the single market, including free movement, with the proviso that if they renege on any element of it, the entire deal dies. The Swiss referendum to limit freedom of movement breaks that treaty. The EU is completely understandable in believing the Swiss can't break their deal and expect to keep the bits they like.

Free movement is a tentpole pillar of the market. The EU isn't letting anyone, whether the UK, Norway and anyone else join the 'fight' to have the benefit of membership without supporting the fundamental pillars of the organisation.

[snowychap]

11 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

please highlight in Bold purple ink Tahoma font the part where I said they registered late  

Your post said:

1 hour ago, tonyh29 said:

of course if these people can't register in 12 months (or however long they had)  , whose to say they are likely to get to the voting booth on time

You implied that there was a connection between their inability to register to vote before the deadline and the likelihood of them getting to 'the voting booth in time'.

Otherwise, what was the point of what you wrote? Was it solely so you could write some nonsense about Bold purple ink Tahoma font?

Actually, if their ability to get on the website to register to vote before the deadline is the right thing to go by (which it probably isn't) then one should assume that they'll all be presenting themselves at the polling station before the 10pm closing.

 

[snowychap]

Like a fool I just put Radio 5 live on and I heard that div Duncan Smith rolling out the old Bank of England '10% increase in immigration means a 2% fall in wages' stuff again. When challenged on what (part of) that actually meant, he returned to the tried and trusted I was in charge of the DWP, don't you know and, of course, anecdote.

[CarewsEyebrowDesigner]

I'm certainly jumping ship if we vote Leave.

[MakemineVanilla]

50 minutes ago, limpid said:

As long as you realise that any trade deal with the EU is likely to come with the same conditions including freedom of movement.

Human rights too.

Didn't the Canadians get a bit miffed when they were negotiating their trade deal with the EU, that it included a clause on human rights?

[blandy]

34 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

I wonder if potentially having the UK and then possibly then Norway etc adding weight to these discussions could have any impact ?

Yeah. There seems to be a kind of upswell, not yet "critical mass" of nations where they basically are at or not far from having >50% of their population, or their Gov't even, holding the view that as it is now operating the EU is "broken" at least in part and it needs either major change or "us" (whoever the us happens to be) leaving it.

I think the UK is definitely one of those nations (ignoring the noise generated by the referendum) pretty much all sides agree that the EU needs reform, with the implicit understanding that if it isn't reformed at some point the whole thing will collapse under its own weight of wrongness.

Trouble is it's not (yet) co-ordinated. When it does become more aligned, then there will be a massive bunfight, I guess.

[tonyh29]

16 minutes ago, snowychap said:

Your post said:

You implied that there was a connection between their inability to register to vote before the deadline and the likelihood of them getting to 'the voting booth in time'.

 

 

so in other words I didn't say what you think I said

Ok , glad we've straightened that out

[tonyh29]

11 minutes ago, CarewsEyebrowDesigner said:

I'm certainly jumping ship if we vote Leave.

yeah , course you are 

[chrisp65]

9 minutes ago, snowychap said:

Actually, if their ability to get on the website to register to vote before the deadline is the right thing to go by (which it probably isn't) then one should assume that they'll all be presenting themselves at the polling station before the 10pm closing.

 

Don't doubt that for a second.

10:00pm closing? Great, we can all stay in bed all day and then roll up at 9:58pm and start bitching on twitter that there's a huge unexpected queue of the disorganised and incompetent in front of us that's threatening our democratic right to vote at 9:59pm because the 3 staff still on duty didn't appreciate 1,583 students would want to roll up late. Yes, late. Late in the sense of the word that involves common sense and experience of the real world. Anybody lacking common sense and real life experience shouldn't be voting on anything important. It's a sort of Darwinist democracy.

 

[tonyh29]

24 minutes ago, Chindie said:

Switzerland's treaties with the EU in essence outline agreements that more or less replicate full membership of the single market, including free movement, with the proviso that if they renege on any element of it, the entire deal dies. The Swiss referendum to limit freedom of movement breaks that treaty. The EU is completely understandable in believing the Swiss can't break their deal and expect to keep the bits they like.

Free movement is a tentpole pillar of the market. The EU isn't letting anyone, whether the UK, Norway and anyone else join the 'fight' to have the benefit of membership without supporting the fundamental pillars of the organisation.

 an Exit vote changes all bets surely  ... Either the EU go into Project Spite as some suggest  , or they go into Project Shit what do we do now  ...( or maybe we over estimate our importance and it makes zero difference )

I think regardless of our vote that the EU will have to be looking at a some form of  conciliatory actions if it wants to survive , The French could well be next to have a look at leaving