snowychap Posted November 22, 2017 Share Posted November 22, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted November 22, 2017 Moderator Share Posted November 22, 2017 I just read that in some areas of the North East first time buyers will save £24! Anyone would think they are just trying to prop up the London housing market... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted November 22, 2017 Moderator Share Posted November 22, 2017 28 minutes ago, TrentVilla said: I just read that in some areas of the North East first time buyers will save £24! Anyone would think they are just trying to prop up the London housing market... Bit like urinating into the wind if you ask me, the London property market is already falling and it's a long way down, can't see them grabbing hold of this paper aeroplane to save them from the fall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 Quote These are the MPs who voted down legislation on animals feeling pain and emotion as part of Brexit bill The 313 MPs Conservative Party Adams, Nigel Afolami, Bim Afriyie, Adam Aldous, Peter Allan, Lucy Allen, Heidi Argar, Edward Atkins, Victoria Bacon, Richard Badenoch, Kemi Baker, Steve Baldwin, Harriett Barclay, Stephen Baron, John Bebb, Guto Bellingham, Henry Benyon, Richard Beresford, Paul Berry, Jake Blackman, Bob Blunt, Crispin Boles, Nick Bone, Peter Bottomley, Peter Bowie, Andrew Bradley, Ben Bradley, Karen Brady, Graham Brereton, Jack Bridgen, Andrew Brine, Steve Brokenshire, James Bruce, Fiona Buckland, Robert Burghart, Alex Burns, Conor Burt, Alistair Cairns, Alun Cartlidge, James Cash, William Caulfield, Maria Chalk, Alex Chishti, Rehman Chope, Christopher Churchill, Jo Clark, Colin Clark, Greg Clarke, Simon Clarke, Kenneth Cleverly, James Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Coffey, Thérèse Collins, Damian Costa, Alberto Courts, Robert Cox, Geoffrey Crabb, Stephen Crouch, Tracey Davies, Chris Davies, David, T., C. Davies, Glyn Davies, Mims Davies, Philip Davis, David Dinenage, Caroline Djanogly, Jonathan Docherty, Leo Donelan, Michelle Dorries, Nadine Double, Steve Dowden, Oliver Doyle-Price, Jackie Drax, Richard Duddridge, James Duguid, David Duncan, Alan Duncan Smith, Iain Dunne, Philip Ellis, Michael Ellwood, Tobias Eustice, George Evans, Nigel Evennett, David Fabricant, Michael Fernandes, Suella Ford, Vicky Foster, Kevin Fox, Liam Francois, Mark Frazer, Lucy Freer, Mike Fysh, Marcus Gale, Roger Garnier, Mark Gauke, David Ghani, Nusrat Gibb, Nick Gillan, Cheryl Glen, John Goldsmith, Zac Goodwill, Robert Gove, Michael Graham, Luke Graham, Richard Grant, Bill Grant, Helen Gray, James Grayling, Chris Green, Chris Green, Damian Greening, Justine Grieve, Dominic Griffiths, Andrew Gyimah, Sam Hair, Kirstene Halfon, Robert Hall, Luke Hammond, Stephen Hancock, Matt Hands, Greg Harper, Mark Harrington, Richard Harris, Rebecca Harrison, Trudy Hart, Simon Hayes, John Heald, Oliver Heappey, James Heaton-Harris, Chris Heaton-Jones, Peter Henderson, Gordon Herbert, Nick Hinds, Damian Hoare, Simon Hollingbery, George Hollinrake, Kevin Hollobone, Philip Holloway, Adam Howell, John Huddleston, Nigel Hughes, Eddie Hunt, Jeremy Hurd, Nick Jack, Alister James, Margot Javid, Sajid Jayawardena, Ranil Jenkin, Bernard Jenrick, Robert Johnson, Caroline Johnson, Gareth Johnson, Joseph Johnson, Boris Jones, Andrew Jones, Marcus Jones, David Kawczynski, Daniel Keegan, Gillian Kennedy, Seema Kerr, Stephen Knight, Julian Knight, Greg Kwarteng, Kwasi Lamont, John Lancaster, Mark Latham, Pauline Leadsom, Andrea Lee, Phillip Lefroy, Jeremy Leigh, Edward Letwin, Oliver Lewer, Andrew Lewis, Brandon Lewis, Julian Liddell-Grainger, Ian Lidington, David Lopez, Julia Lopresti, Jack Lord, Jonathan Loughton, Tim Mackinlay, Craig Maclean, Rachel Main, Anne Mak, Alan Malthouse, Kit Mann, Scott Masterton, Paul Maynard, Paul McLoughlin, Patrick McPartland, Stephen McVey, Esther Menzies, Mark Mercer, Johnny Merriman, Huw Metcalfe, Stephen Miller, Maria Milling, Amanda Mills, Nigel Milton, Anne Mitchell, Andrew Moore, Damien Mordaunt, Penny Morgan, Nicky Morris, David Morris, James Morton, Wendy Mundell, David Murray, Sheryll Murrison, Andrew Neill, Robert Newton, Sarah Nokes, Caroline Norman, Jesse O'Brien, Neil Offord, Matthew Opperman, Guy Parish, Neil Patel, Priti Paterson, Owen Pawsey, Mark Penning, Mike Penrose, John Percy, Andrew Perry, Claire Philp, Chris Pincher, Christopher Pow, Rebecca Prentis, Victoria Prisk, Mark Pritchard, Mark Pursglove, Tom Quin, Jeremy Quince, Will Raab, Dominic Redwood, John Rees-Mogg, Jacob Robertson, Laurence Robinson, Mary Rosindell, Andrew Ross, Douglas Rowley, Lee Rudd, Amber Rutley, David Sandbach, Antoinette Scully, Paul Seely, Bob Selous, Andrew Shapps, Grant Sharma, Alok Shelbrooke, Alec Simpson, Keith Skidmore, Chris Smith, Chloe Smith, Henry Smith, Julian Smith, Royston Soames, Nicholas Soubry, Anna Spelman, Caroline Spencer, Mark Stevenson, John Stewart, Bob Stewart, Iain Stewart, Rory Stride, Mel Stuart, Graham Sturdy, Julian Sunak, Rishi Swayne, Desmond Swire, Hugo Syms, Robert Thomas, Derek Thomson, Ross Throup, Maggie Tolhurst, Kelly Tomlinson, Justin Tomlinson, Michael Tracey, Craig Tredinnick, David Trevelyan, Anne-Marie Truss, Elizabeth Tugendhat, Tom Vara, Shailesh Vickers, Martin Villiers, Theresa Walker, Charles Walker, Robin Wallace, Ben Warburton, David Warman, Matt Watling, Giles Whately, Helen Wheeler, Heather Whittaker, Craig Whittingdale, John Williamson, Gavin Wollaston, Sarah Wood, Mike Wragg, William Wright, Jeremy Zahawi, Nadhim Democratic Unionist Party Campbell, Gregory Dodds, Nigel Donaldson, Jeffrey, M. Girvan, Paul Little, Pengelly, Emma Paisley, Ian Robinson, Gavin Shannon, Jim Simpson, David Wilson, Sammy Independents Elphicke, Charlie Morris, Anne Marie Indy100 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 18 hours ago, TrentVilla said: I just read that in some areas of the North East first time buyers will save £24! Anyone would think they are just trying to prop up the London housing market... In some areas of everywhere you'll save little amounts. If a house is valued at £126k, you'll "save" sod all. I'm not sure the removed stamp tax for first time buyers was particularly necessary, but it's not a bad thing, is it? It's a nightmare saving up a first deposit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted November 23, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted November 23, 2017 The problem, as has been pointed out here already and the OBR pegged even before the announcement, with removing stamp duty for FTBs (or anyone really) is the money will just go to the price of the property instead. Every seller in the land will know that for an FTB the duty isn't an issue any longer and that means the buyer has more in their pocket, meaning the price can go up. Meaning the entire market goes up. Meaning you've solved nothing and possibly made things worse. It's useless. Looks good though, on the surface. It'll fool a few younger voters into thinking the Tories want to help them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted November 23, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted November 23, 2017 Speaking of the economy, with growth looking dire (and not taking Brexit into account properly, apparently), some figures have come revealing the worst off third of the country will be £700 down with the latest developments. Some more well off will be up to the tune of just over £100. I'm sure Brexit will reverse this trend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 22 minutes ago, Chindie said: The problem, as has been pointed out here already and the OBR pegged even before the announcement, with removing stamp duty for FTBs (or anyone really) is the money will just go to the price of the property instead. Every seller in the land will know that for an FTB the duty isn't an issue any longer and that means the buyer has more in their pocket, meaning the price can go up. Meaning the entire market goes up. Meaning you've solved nothing and possibly made things worse. It's useless. Looks good though, on the surface. It'll fool a few younger voters into thinking the Tories want to help them. I appreciate that this will mean increased house prices to an extent, but stamp duty hasn't been removed. I imagine that most purchases of houses valued, say, £220k+ aren't made by first time buyers (could be wrong here) which will still incur stamp duty taxation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post snowychap Posted November 23, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted November 23, 2017 It didn't take long for social housing to fall back off the agenda Quote In the days and weeks after the Grenfell Tower fire, politicians and commentators repeatedly spoke of the need to start listening to social housing tenants. They wanted to hear about their lives and understand why the concerns raised by those living at Grenfell had gone unheard. In a moving and brutally honest speech, the Channel 4 news presenter Jon Snow said: "Why didn’t any of us see the Grenfell action blog? Why didn’t we know? Why didn’t we have contact? Why didn’t we enable the residents of Grenfell Tower - and indeed the other hundreds of towers like it around Britain - to find pathways to talk to us and for us to expose their story?" But there is a pathway to journalists, it's called social media. Journalists are more accessible now than they have ever been. These stories were out there on Twitter and Facebook. They weren't hard to find, it's just that nobody bothered looking. Journalists have known for years about the social housing crisis. They've heard all about estate 'regeneration' and people being moved away from their homes. They know that rough sleeping is soaring. They know that young families are living in B&Bs and hostels while waiting for a permanent home. They know all this. That it hasn't been reported on more is not because it was some big secret, it is because it wasn't seen as being important enough. Grenfell seemed to change that, we stopped hearing only of a need for affordable homes but also for social housing. It's a term politicians have avoided using for many years. Even the Conservatives started talking about it. But it didn't last long. Yesterday, Phillip Hammond failed to utter the words social housing once during his budget speech. Not once. The full budget document confirmed there would be a further £2bn for "affordable housing" which will include funding for social homes. But this was announced back in October, it's not new money. And anyway the sum is only expected to provide around 25,000 new "affordable" homes. To put that into perspective, 104,000 people in Britain have been stuck on a council waiting list for five years. Decide for yourself whether 25,000 homes, not all of which will be social, is enough. Instead, the big announcement was the scrapping of stamp duty for first-time buyers purchasing a property up to £300,000 or £500,000 in the capital. On Newsnight the chief secretary to the Treasury Liz Truss said: "We really felt it was necessary to do something now to help those who have struggled for a number of years...the people we want to help are those people who we are exempting from [stamp duty] tax." And that's the crux of the matter. The government looked at the housing crisis and concluded that middle-class professionals who earn enough to be able to a get a mortgage on a £500,000 house are the ones who should be helped. Not the single mums who have been shipped out of London and dumped in damp bedsits with their kids. Not the young families who have been housed in a former office block in the middle of an industrial estate. These people, and there are thousands like them across the country, are not as important as upwardly mobile first-time buyers. Instead, they will just stay where they are, knowing that the wait for a permanent home will be a long and often fruitless one. It wasn't just the chancellor who seemed to forget all about social housing. In all the coverage and analysis that followed, it was barely mentioned at all. All of a sudden we were back to obsessing over home-ownership and whether the stamp duty pledge would help owners or buyers the most. There was hardly a word about the people at the sharp end of the housing crisis, the ones who have been hit not only by the shortage of homes but also by cuts to welfare and stubbornly low wages. These are the same people that just a few short weeks ago politicians and journalists insisted should be heard. How quickly they were forgotten. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 3 hours ago, Xann said: Indy100 Without wishing to be too defensive of Tories, this is getting blown slightly out of proportion. The TFEU Article 13 is pretty wooly, it just says since animals are sentient beings, full regard must be paid to their welfare. Many MPs are arguing that we already have strong animal welfare laws better than other members of the EU, and that therefore incorporating a rather limited article into our law is not really necessary. Whats so interesting about the debate is that surely its showing up the 'take back control' nonsense for the huge exaggeration it always was. So we have animal welfare rights better than the EU requires, we have it incorporated in domestic law , and yet i thought those nasty EU commissioners were controlling all our laws and forcing us to live by all their rules? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 33 minutes ago, andym said: Many MPs are arguing that we already have strong animal welfare laws better than other members of the EU, and that therefore incorporating a rather limited article into our law is not really necessary. Guess which MPs they were? Here's another one. Quote Caroline Lucas ✔ @CarolineLucas The Prime Minister is WRONG. The Animal Welfare Act (2006) does not provide that protection. Absolutely no excuse for not supporting my animal sentience amendment last week. #PMQs 12:19 PM - Nov 22, 2017 Caroline would seem to have the support of the British Veterinarian Association. Guardian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amsterdam_Neil_D Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 It's not really about what it is as long as it can't defend itself. The poor, disabled, *small animals and people just trying to get on in life. They will go for you at some point, they will either hunt you, burn you, take your money or make you homeless to name but a few of their favourite weapons. (Small animals that can't fight back or are blind). If they really are ahead in the polls then there is no hope for the UK, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andym Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 30 minutes ago, Xann said: Guess which MPs they were? Here's another one. Caroline would seem to have the support of the British Veterinarian Association. Guardian The Animal Welfare Act doesn't mention sentience, but it applies to all vertebrates other than humans (and can be expanded to include invertebrates by regulation), so its clear protections are there. Does it need to specifically mention sentience? Of course surely the best way to sort it all out would be to update the act or propose new legislation now, clearly setting out all appropriate protections and reference to sentience etc. It would be domestic law so all the brexiteers would be happy, and it would comply with the EU article (as we are still members at this moment) so Caroline Lucas should be happy. That way we would really find out what the MPs think and whether they really care. However, i can imagine a few wouldn't be keen on this, and would rather promise to sort it all out once we have left the EU, and then conveniently keep forgetting to deal with it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hippo Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 3 hours ago, bobzy said: In some areas of everywhere you'll save little amounts. If a house is valued at £126k, you'll "save" sod all. I'm not sure the removed stamp tax for first time buyers was particularly necessary, but it's not a bad thing, is it? It's a nightmare saving up a first deposit. Does relaxing stamp duty help with your deposit ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Risso Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 24 minutes ago, andym said: The Animal Welfare Act doesn't mention sentience, but it applies to all vertebrates other than humans (and can be expanded to include invertebrates by regulation), so its clear protections are there. Does it need to specifically mention sentience? Of course surely the best way to sort it all out would be to update the act or propose new legislation now, clearly setting out all appropriate protections and reference to sentience etc. It would be domestic law so all the brexiteers would be happy, and it would comply with the EU article (as we are still members at this moment) so Caroline Lucas should be happy. That way we would really find out what the MPs think and whether they really care. However, i can imagine a few wouldn't be keen on this, and would rather promise to sort it all out once we have left the EU, and then conveniently keep forgetting to deal with it! The 'story' is nonsense, clickbait rubbish put around by that purveyor of bollocks The Independent. It is illegal to cause suffering to animals now, and it will be illegal to cause suffering to animals once we've left the EU. In any case, the EU is terrible when it comes to animal welfare. No limit on the distances live animals can be exported, plus barbaric practices like bull fighting and foie gras production having nothing done about them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 Quote Rejection of animal sentience from Brexit Bill risks UK short-fall on high animal welfare standards British Veterinary Association Here's the vet's clickbait site. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Risso Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 1 hour ago, Xann said: British Veterinary Association Here's the vet's clickbait site. The bloke is clearly a moron. EU rules are obviously meaningless when something as barbaric as foie gras production is allowed to continue unchallenged. It's almost like the EU is concerned more with French farmers than they are animal rights. The existing UK legislation makes it illegal to cause suffering to animals. They can only suffer if they are by definition, capable of feeling pain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted November 23, 2017 Moderator Share Posted November 23, 2017 I'm with Risso on this one it's an absolutely daft dog whistle on both sides of the debate. The supporters of the motion get to say, look we like animals aren't we great, vote for us The people voting against get to say. look, the EU laws blah blah, er support fox hunting blah, look what we did, vote for us In reality, if the amendment had been accepted or not, absolutely nothing would have changed An utter waste of parliamentary time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Risso Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 TheIndescribablyshit says "The Tories have voted that animals can't feel pain as part of the EU bill, marking the beginning of our anti-science Brexit". From Hansard the other day: "Zac Goldsmith (Richmond Park) (Con) The intervention by the hon. Member for Stroud (Dr Drew) was a little unfair on the Secretary of State, because he is not just using warm words. There has been a flurry of activity and real commitment in the past four months, including banning neonicotinoids just a few days ago, placing CCTVs in every abattoir in the country, raising sentencing from six months to five years for those who engage in cruelty to animals, and banning the ivory trade. I could spend 10 minutes reeling off the Secretary of State’s achievements, promises, commitments and actions. We should celebrate that. It is extraordinary." "Caroline Lucas I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention and I agree with him—so far. There are still more tests to be applied to how far-reaching this Secretary of State is, but the commitments he has made so far have certainly been welcome. I hope that he will also take strong action on this Brexit Bill, in terms not only of NC30 but of the crucial issues of environmental governance and principles. To be honest, what I have heard so far is that different commitments will be put into national policy statements, but that is not good enough. They are not robust or rigorous enough. The jury is still out on some things, but I certainly join the hon. Gentleman in saying that the progress so far has been pretty extraordinary by the standards of previous Secretaries of State. Why does the right hon. Gentleman think that the two are mutually exclusive? Why could we not have the security of knowing that we have a provision in the Bill? We are delighted with the new Secretary of State, but how long will he stay? Who knows? Who might come next? We want the certainty of the Bill now, as well as the nice hope of the environment Act that so many of us have been requesting for such a long time." https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2017-11-15/debates/7A700C0E-8BA2-4EEC-B53D-997028C06900/EuropeanUnion(Withdrawal)Bill Some pretty fulsome praise for a Conservative Secretary of State there form a Green Party MP, but the way the unutterably crap, worse-than-Trump-fake-new Independent describes it, is that all of a sudden it's going to be legal to start murdering puppies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markavfc40 Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 (edited) Just watching ITV news and it reported that average earnings will be £1400 lower in 2021 than they were in 2008 in real terms. It got me thinking are there any positives from the Tories 7 and half years in power? we are in more debt than ever, our public services are in a dire state, there have been huge increases in homelessness, working poor, children living in poverty, people reliant on food banks, disabled people killing themselves due to cuts in benefits. Austerity has been a disaster. On top of all that we are more divided as a nation now than I can remember in my adult life (I am 43). Off the back of Brexit many people seem to think it is ok to tell immigrants to piss off home, or simply blame them for our woes. Off the back of the Governments welfare policies and rhetoric benefit claimants have become fair game to have the finger pointed at them as being scrounging bastards. The Tories have done nothing to stem these tides in fact have allowed and at times actively encouraged it to prevent the blame being pointed at them. Can any Tory supporter tell me what they have got right since 2010? Edited November 23, 2017 by markavfc40 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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