bickster Posted December 7, 2017 Moderator Share Posted December 7, 2017 5 minutes ago, markavfc40 said: Williamson has clearly been influenced by Trump and his fellow Tory David Davis in thinking you can say what the hell you like. This has got to be one of the worst UK Governments ever hasn't it? I know there are those that go back further than me (I am 43) so maybe those that do can let me know if there has been a worse one. I can't think of one positive over the last 7 years, could write a 10 page essay on what they have done wrong, and can see nothing but a bleak future for the vast majority going forward, especially those already with the least. Certainly the most incompetent and the one with the least mandate to do the damage it is doing. Worst, however, is too subjective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markavfc40 Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 (edited) 17 minutes ago, bickster said: Certainly the most incompetent and the one with the least mandate to do the damage it is doing. Worst, however, is too subjective. Maybe although it is pretty straight forward for me as I consider the main role of Government is to provide for those that need a helping hand. So that would be the sick, elderly, poor, disabled people, children. It isn't to provide for the likes of me who are doing okay, have their own roof over their heads, a half decent income, a decent lifestyle and who is able to adequately provide for his children. I have been given tax cuts that I didn't need and shouldn't have had as that money could be better used providing public services and helping those who need it. I am not beyond being a little selfish though and what I would like is for my children to go to a decent school and get a decent education one that won't leave them straddled with debt come the end of it. What I would also like is to know that if me or mine get ill there will be an excellent health service to take care of us all, good social care if it is needed and a decent welfare safety net if we should ever be unfortunate to fall on hard times. I would also like my children to have the same opportunities I had to get on the housing ladder. I'd like to think the vast majority want what I have listed above and if that is the case I'd say this Government is failing on every measure. Edited December 7, 2017 by markavfc40 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted December 7, 2017 Moderator Share Posted December 7, 2017 5 minutes ago, markavfc40 said: Maybe although it is pretty straight forward for me as I consider the main role of Government is to provide for those that need a helping hand. So that would be the sick, elderly, poor, disabled people, children. It isn't to provide for the likes of me who are doing okay, have their own roof over their heads, a half decent income, a decent lifestyle and who is able to adequately provide for his children. I have been given tax cuts that I didn't need and shouldn't have had as that money could be better used providing public services and helping those who need it. I am not beyond being a little selfish though and what I would like is for my children to go to a decent school and get a decent education one that won't leave them straddled with debt come the end of it. What I would also like is to know that if me or mine get ill there will be an excellent health service to take care of us all, good social care if it is needed and a decent welfare safety net if we should ever be unfortunate to fall on hard times. I would also like my children to have the same opportunities I had to get on the housing ladder. I'd like to think the vast majority want what I have listed above and if that is the case I'd say this Government is failing on every measure. Thatcher actually destroyed whole communities, deliberately, to prove a political point and break the unions. That was still far more callous than this lot imo. Its shades of Black but I still think the Witch is winning. I don't think this lot are competent enough or intelligent enough to be that callous 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markavfc40 Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 (edited) 18 minutes ago, bickster said: Thatcher actually destroyed whole communities, deliberately, to prove a political point and break the unions. That was still far more callous than this lot imo. Its shades of Black but I still think the Witch is winning. I don't think this lot are competent enough or intelligent enough to be that callous I was only really a kid when Thatcher was doing most of her damage but I am very aware of what the evil cow did. I think the thing with this mob is their ideological destruction of public services in the name of austerity and the way they have targeted the most vulnerable amongst us. It is sickening really. I have said it before but I can never get my head around how anyone could stick an X next to a Tory candidate. You'd think those that lived through the Thatcher years and saw the destruction under her would know better yet it is those 50 plus that are most likely to vote for them. Edited December 7, 2017 by markavfc40 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted December 7, 2017 Moderator Share Posted December 7, 2017 Just now, markavfc40 said: I was only really a kid when Thatcher was doing most of her damage but I am very ware of what the evil cow did. I think the thing with this mob is their ideological destruction of public services in the name of austerity and the way they have targeted the most vulnerable amongst us. It is sickening really. I have said it before but I can never get my head around how anyone could stick an X next to a Tory candidate. You'd think those that lived through the Thatcher years and saw the destruction under her would know better yet it is those 50 plus that are most likely to vote for them. It's just more of the same really, it's their modus operandi. Its what Tories do. But you have to remember Thatcher only targeted certain sections of (there's no such thing as) society, lots of people did very well out of the Thatcher years. There's less of those groups of people that can benefit now,. The Tories vote is dying away. Today's Tory pensioners are the ones that benefited from Thatcherism, all the people behind them have been dicked over by whichever shade of Tory that's been in Power. I include the Blair years in that. They are extincting themselves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post chrisp65 Posted December 7, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted December 7, 2017 Just now, markavfc40 said: Maybe although it is pretty straight forward for me as I consider the main role of Government is to provide for those that need a helping hand. So that would be the sick, elderly, poor, disabled people, children. I know I've banged on about it several times, but in my formative years a tory government unleashed police thuggery to disrupt areas of the country that had been selected for economic closure. It pre dated social media, so there's no smartphone footage of the thousands upon thousands of little acts of police violence on behalf of dead thatcher and her cronies. The other thing, back then, a much larger per centage of the population were conditioned to believe what authority told them and the media was basically BBC and ITV. I've seen people punched by the police for absolutely no reason. I've seen collection buckets of small change kicked up the street by roaming little gangs of young english police posted to little welsh towns. I've personally fallen victim to some of their 'policing'. I've then seen tories go on the TV and commend the police for their restraint dealing with vicious scum. During my life, I don't think the police have ever been used by any government as such an overt weapon against their own people. This lot are bad and incompetent. That lot were very good at what they were doing. Absolute cold blooded bastards. I'm sure the two car families of the Home Counties will have had a different experience of it. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markavfc40 Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 5 minutes ago, bickster said: It's just more of the same really, it's their modus operandi. Its what Tories do. But you have to remember Thatcher only targeted certain sections of (there's no such thing as) society, lots of people did very well out of the Thatcher years. There's less of those groups of people that can benefit now,. The Tories vote is dying away. Today's Tory pensioners are the ones that benefited from Thatcherism, all the people behind them have been dicked over by whichever shade of Tory that's been in Power. I include the Blair years in that. They are extincting themselves That is also something I will never understand is how those that did okay out of the Thatcher years, or now, could see those having their lives ruined as no more than collateral damage and turn a blind eye to it all. You can't just blame those in power. The finger also has to be pointed at those who put them there and those that put Tories in power can have little or no social conscience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markavfc40 Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 @chrisp65 that is shocking what you have described in your last post mate. Like you say without social media the news was more controlled then but those who lived at that time and anyone who didn't but takes more than a passing interest in politics would be aware of the destructive nature of the Tories then. Armed with that knowledge how do people still vote for them other than thinking as long as I am alright Jack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted December 7, 2017 Moderator Share Posted December 7, 2017 She created whole generations of people that only think of themselves. The loadsamoney generations 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenm Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 19 minutes ago, bickster said: She created whole generations of people that only think of themselves. The loadsamoney generations 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenm Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 The BBC and the Tories. Something stinks. Barely a mention of anything that makes the Tories look bad. There's been some pretty shocking stuff recently and it's been brushed over. Today the news about Momentum being investigated for election spending is all over the place. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 20 minutes ago, markavfc40 said: Armed with that knowledge how do people still vote for them other than thinking as long as I am alright Jack. Yep, that's exactly what it is, I'm alright jack. Told that the NHS is closing down and mental health care is in meltdown, but some people will get an extra pound... some people will vote for the extra pound. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markavfc40 Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 (edited) 20 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: Yep, that's exactly what it is, I'm alright jack. Told that the NHS is closing down and mental health care is in meltdown, but some people will get an extra pound... some people will vote for the extra pound. Yes I know exactly why people vote for them for very selfish reasons I just don't understand how you can turn a blind eye to the destruction of public services and the attacks on those with the least and those most vulnerable. How you can value the money in your own pocket over the well being of society as a whole. It is not just the divide between the haves and have not's now though is it and pointing the finger at those claiming benefits we have now gone back years and plenty of us are again pointing the finger at Johnny Foreigner. I don't ever remember the country being as divided as is now on a number of issues and this government is doing nothing to bring us together in fact it actively encourages division. Edited December 7, 2017 by markavfc40 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenm Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 I know a few Tories. They think that in general it's unfortunate that there are homeless people and disabled people not able to get by on pips or wrongly declared fit for work, but it's worth it not to have IRA fan no.1 and Venezuela fan Corbyn in or can't count Abbott or Marxist McDonnell, and that Labour just lie about tuition fees. These people don't know what Marxism is. They weren't anything to do with NI during the violence. They had no clue what type of government was in Venezuela or the actual reasons for the economic crash, or the truth behind any of it. That's because they get it all from papers or people who read papers and talk, and the TV media who don't challenge the misconceptions. The newspaper media is set up to sell to people who buy newspapers - over 45s. So they keep it all very right wing and the baby boomers happily lap it all up. The light at the end of the tunnel is that as older people die off, newspaper readership is falling. This should be the Tories swansong. And after that they'll be in the wilderness for a long, long time. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a m ole Posted December 7, 2017 Share Posted December 7, 2017 46 minutes ago, markavfc40 said: Yes I know exactly why people vote for them for very selfish reasons I just don't understand how you can turn a blind eye to the destruction of public services and the attacks on those with the least and those most vulnerable. How you can value the money in your own pocket over the well being of society as a whole. It is not just the divide between the haves and have not's now though is it and pointing the finger at those claiming benefits we have now gone back years and plenty of us are again pointing the finger at Johnny Foreigner. I don't ever remember the country being as divided as is now on a number of issues and this government is doing nothing to bring us together in fact it actively encourages division. Quite honestly, I think some people (not party specific, just a significant portion of the population) just don’t think. They don’t see videos like the one posted previously and think about what causes a situation like that, they go “oh that’s sad” and forget about it a minute later. A lot of people can’t be bothered to think about or research something for more than 15 seconds because it’s boring. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted December 8, 2017 Share Posted December 8, 2017 2 hours ago, chrisp65 said: Yep, that's exactly what it is, I'm alright jack. Told that the NHS is closing down and mental health care is in meltdown, but some people will get an extra pound... some people will vote for the extra pound. And they could spend it towards going private and not over burdening the NHS ... win win Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted December 8, 2017 Author Moderator Share Posted December 8, 2017 1 hour ago, darrenm said: I know a few Tories. They think that in general it's unfortunate that there are homeless people and disabled people not able to get by on pips or wrongly declared fit for work, but it's worth it not to have IRA fan no.1 and Venezuela fan Corbyn in or can't count Abbott or Marxist McDonnell, and that Labour just lie about tuition fees. These people don't know what Marxism is. They weren't anything to do with NI during the violence. They had no clue what type of government was in Venezuela or the actual reasons for the economic crash, or the truth behind any of it. That's because they get it all from papers or people who read papers and talk, and the TV media who don't challenge the misconceptions. The newspaper media is set up to sell to people who buy newspapers - over 45s. So they keep it all very right wing and the baby boomers happily lap it all up. The light at the end of the tunnel is that as older people die off, newspaper readership is falling. This should be the Tories swansong. And after that they'll be in the wilderness for a long, long time. I think this current govt is the worst we’ve ever had. For all the wickedness of thatcher’s lot there’s been something equally vile since 2010. Then on top of that, this lot are more incompetent, more idiotic. But it’s not just elderly Tory newspaper readers who have a low opinion of Corbyn, Abbot and chums. To think it is is to make a mistake. To think that it’s just people who have fallen for ‘fabricated Mail tripe about Venezuela and the IRA’ and they’ll soon be dead anyway is to completely miss the picture, IMO. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted December 8, 2017 Moderator Share Posted December 8, 2017 I think this government is altogether less powerful than Thatcher's, and I think it's largely Thatchers fault. One of the principles of neoliberalism is the reduction of democracy - the shrinking of the public sphere, and with it all of it's apparatus - the unions, public utilities, railways, the royal mail, the NHS and ultimately government. The corporate structure in which we live, the one that was encouraged and nurtured by Thatcher (and Reagan) does not want to risk its concentration of power to wealth on the whims of voters - so it has spent decades undermining democratic processes - not so much voting, it's important that people believe they can vote and it makes a difference, but by imposing controls on the work of those people that are voted into power. Elections here are moving in the same direction as those that the US has - every four years, the people get together and vote for the people that they believe would best be able to serve the interests of the lobbyists. That's not a representative democracy - it's corporate oligarchy. When David Davis originally said he'd done the reports into the impact of Brexit in various industry sectors, one of the reasons he gave initially for not releasing them, and for redacting them was that the information within was sensitive to individual companies - those are the people that are protected in the process, not voters, those are the people he works for, those are the people that Brexit is being worked on for, the people this government are attempting to protect - the lobbyists for a corporate structure. When Donald Trump announced that he recognised Jerusalem as capital of Israel, he did it because of a campaign promise - is that because Jerusalem is a massive vote winner - do dust bowl farmers chew thoughtfully on a sprig of hay and think, "I'll vote for a man who supports Israel in the occupied territories"? No. Of course not - your average American doesn't give a fig - but the pro-Israel lobby does - and it's those people to whom Trump reports, to whom the senate is beholden. It's easy (and fun) to point at idiot Trump and imagine he's the cause, the reason for Americas lurch into insanity - when he's just a front man - if you believe he makes the policy decisions then you're exactly what he wants - Trump does what he's paid to do, by whoever he's paid by - Israel pays; Israel gets Jerusalem. Lockheed Martin pays, Lockheed Martin gets increased tensions in Korea and a good sized US defence budget, Citibank pays; Citibank gets a tax bill. The USA is not by any definition that makes sense a representative democracy and we're headed the same way. Is this government our worst? Maybe - but it doesn't really matter as much as it used to - Thatcher made rules for business and now because of her and the rules she made, business makes rules for May. This government might be hopeless, it might be doing its best to represent a sector of society that doesn't care or believe in society and as a result looking like it's hopeless because we don't know the aims, but it's the least relevant government we've ever had - over decades, corporate power, money in politics, global markets and financial institutions have moved the power from the democratic process into places they can control it and turned government into puppetry. In that situation, is it any wonder that government flounders under the instruction of so many different masters? 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted December 8, 2017 Share Posted December 8, 2017 10 hours ago, darrenm said: I poached a 6kg piece of gammon last night, and it looks just like the one on the top left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted December 8, 2017 Moderator Share Posted December 8, 2017 They are sending Boris to Tehran, if I was that poor woman’s husband, I'd be very worried 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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