Risso Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 18 minutes ago, bickster said: I'm with Risso on this one it's an absolutely daft dog whistle on both sides of the debate. The supporters of the motion get to say, look we like animals aren't we great, vote for us The people voting against get to say. look, the EU laws blah blah, er support fox hunting blah, look what we did, vote for us In reality, if the amendment had been accepted or not, absolutely nothing would have changed An utter waste of parliamentary time It would also help if Caroline Lucas had a vague idea of what she was talking about. In that same meeting which Hansard reports, she says: "The Act applies only to companion animals—domestic pets. It does not apply to farm animals, wildlife or laboratory animals. For those reasons, I intend to press new clause 30 to a Division." Except that the Act relates to domesticATED animals, which does actually, include all farm animals. So her vote was basically predicated on a complete misunderstanding by her of the legislation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 42 minutes ago, Risso said: The bloke is clearly a moron. Moron vets, they're everywhere. 4 minutes ago, Risso said: Some pretty fulsome praise for a Conservative Secretary of State there form a Green Party MP, but the way the unutterably crap, worse-than-Trump-fake-new Independent describes it, is that all of a sudden it's going to be legal to start murdering puppies. Yeah, the Tories would never want to bring back hunting with hounds or anything. Strangely, Pob did get some credit on VT for his downer on neonicotinoids. I say strange, because it was me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Risso Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 So, an amendment based on the fact that Caroline Lucas doesn't understand simple definitions doesn't get included because it's absolutely unnecessary, and we should look instead to the animal-friendly EU with their bull fighting, utterly inhumane foie gras production and fur farms for the way forward? Rightio. Which part of the EU article on animal sentience is it that has helped ducks and geese being force fed until their livers are 10 times their normal size? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 4 minutes ago, Risso said: So, an amendment based on the fact that Caroline Lucas doesn't understand simple definitions doesn't get included because it's absolutely unnecessary, and we should look instead to the animal-friendly EU with their bull fighting, utterly inhumane foie gras production and fur farms for the way forward? Rightio. Which part of the EU article on animal sentience is it that has helped ducks and geese being force fed until their livers are 10 times their normal size? My suggestion would be that taking foie gras away from the French and bullfighting away from the Spanish would take them underground. Obsessions that run deep are going to take time. The Spanish are much less keen on bullfighting than a couple of decades ago. Until recently I'd have said its years were numbered, but the World's going a bit batshit, so who knows? Who is eating foie gras and can you take it from them? Perhaps, come the revolution? So, why would this bit of animal legislation be dropped? To save money on enforcement, sure, but it's already in the books, like so much of what's supposedly being waved through. Matches the nearest trading partner as well, if that holds any water post the current stumble??.. Probably not with these clowns Call me a cynical word removed, but I suspect the bonus here is about making a more flexible marketplace. We are whoring ourselves out quite brazenly for cash right now. I'd be shocked if you agreed, of course Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Risso Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 I don't agree, because no legislation has been dropped. The Animal Welfare Act makes it an offence to cause suffering to an animal. As you will see from that Hansard report I quoted, Gove has significantly increased the sentences for such crimes, for which Caroline Lucas, who is about as diametrically opposed politically as it's possible to be, agreed that Gove is the best environment secretary that we've had for years. Clearly, an organism can only experience pain and suffering if it is sentient to begin with. We have absolutely nothing to learn from the EU in terms of animal welfare, and everything to gain from doing things much better ourselves. And I speak as an animal lover with 1 dog, two cats, 11 chickens and 3 horses to look after. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 Would you be really be surprised by someone involved having an angle for making cash from this? Time will tell if there's an exploit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colhint Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 Seems the indy has retracted the article and issued a statement, the article was incorrect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 7 minutes ago, colhint said: Seems the indy has retracted the article and issued a statement, the article was incorrect. It seems it's this... Quote So what’s the situation? Some of the Government’s attempts to dismiss the controversy have been overly extreme, apparently in an attempt to write-off the entire discussion. Despite claims about fake news, it’s not definitive why exactly MPs voted against the amendment, or that the Government will meaningfully recognise animals as sentient – instead, it relies on people believing the Government’s claims that it will guarantee protections. At the same time, many of the reports did miss a very specific but very important detail of what happened. Nobody voted that animals aren’t sentient, because that wasn’t ever up for a vote. Instead, they didn’t vote that they were. A number of stories gave a misleading impression by eliding that distinction. With all of that out of the way, what you feel about all of this ultimately comes down to the issues above: whether you think it’s important that animal sentience is specifically recognised in law, whether you think the 2006 act goes far enough, and whether you believe the Government that it is going to guarantee similar protections in its own time. Independent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicho Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 12 hours ago, markavfc40 said: Can any Tory supporter tell me what they have got right since 2010? I think you will be told that what they have got right it not being Labour. I know this next comment is a broad stroke but I genuinely believe that a lot of people don't know what they vote for when voting Tory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 How much longer can the Tories use 'ahhhh but'? It's been 7 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted November 24, 2017 Moderator Share Posted November 24, 2017 13 hours ago, markavfc40 said: Can any Tory supporter tell me what they have got right since 2010? Fox Hunting Ban Gay Marriage (not that I'm a Tory Supporter, just for the record) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xela Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 3 hours ago, StefanAVFC said: How much longer can the Tories use 'ahhhh but'? It's been 7 years. it's the standard political response for any ruling party. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amsterdam_Neil_D Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 3 hours ago, bickster said: Fox Hunting Ban Gay Marriage (not that I'm a Tory Supporter, just for the record) There not really policies, 99% of normal people think these are a given I suspect. Not exactly ground breaking stuff from them really is it, I hope they are proud of their school project, how long did those 2 take them, all term ? What's next, "The Tories are proud that the they are banning pushing people & / or poor people under subway trains or any other transport infrastructure object whilst in transit" the words removed. 2 things right from 2 that in reality only really have 1 answer for each so not that debatable surely ? (they get paid for this as well) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted November 24, 2017 Author Moderator Share Posted November 24, 2017 4 hours ago, bickster said: Fox Hunting Ban Gay Marriage (not that I'm a Tory Supporter, just for the record) Fox hunting ban was labour 2004 wasn’t it and May wanted to can it...But yeah, the gay wedding thing and, um,..... neonicitinoid ban if it happens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted November 24, 2017 Moderator Share Posted November 24, 2017 39 minutes ago, Amsterdam_Neil_D said: There not really policies, 99% of normal people think these are a given I suspect. Not exactly ground breaking stuff from them really is it, I hope they are proud of their school project, how long did those 2 take them, all term ? What's next, "The Tories are proud that the they are banning pushing people & / or poor people under subway trains or any other transport infrastructure object whilst in transit" the words removed. 2 things right from 2 that in reality only really have 1 answer for each so not that debatable surely ? (they get paid for this as well) If they weren't policies, what were they? A question was asked, those are the two things they've done that were right since 2010 Both policies (cos that's what they were) were hard fought for amongst much resistance from within the Party. You have to give them credit where its due 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted November 24, 2017 Moderator Share Posted November 24, 2017 2 minutes ago, blandy said: Fox hunting ban was labour 2004 wasn’t it and May wanted to can it...But yeah, the gay wedding thing and, um,..... neonicitinoid ban if it happens Yeah your probably right, addled mind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 gay divorce up sharply under tories, record levels 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amsterdam_Neil_D Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 6 minutes ago, bickster said: If they weren't policies, what were they? A question was asked, those are the two things they've done that were right since 2010 Both policies (cos that's what they were) were hard fought for amongst much resistance from within the Party. You have to give them credit where its due They are policies but what I mean is that no one with a brain would be for fox hunting or against gay marriage. The problem I have is that there was any resistance at all for things that usually don't need a moments thought as they are such easy policies to come up with. I am not explaining it very well but it is not a pop at you In gymnastics difficulty, fox hunting / Gay marriage are a 1 or a 2 (Unless you are a collection of words removed) and solving housing / Brexit / homelessness / poverty / Crime are a 8, 9 or a 10 difficulty. I can do a gambol if that helps . Does that explain it ? Thought not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 They had, in their manifesto this year, a commitment to a free vote to end the fox hunting ban. Not only do they get no credit, they get plenty of criticism on that score. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Risso Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 13 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: gay divorce up sharply under tories, record levels Two people leaving the toilet seat up, recipe for disaster. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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