Davkaus Posted March 25, 2023 Share Posted March 25, 2023 2 hours ago, Demitri_C said: They porbably would have **** the economy up like they did before cameron won the election. Are you still blaming Labour for the global financial crisis? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HKP90 Posted March 25, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted March 25, 2023 32 minutes ago, Demitri_C said: I actually dont trust any of the main two parties to be honest.both have **** the country up in different ways. We just sit there and take it like mugs You could always vote for a third party, and then the current lot will get back in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted March 25, 2023 Moderator Share Posted March 25, 2023 There would have been meetings and talk amongst the group of people that write speeches for/with Starmer about the Thatcher quote - and they have very deliberately decided to add her in - I get what they're doing, appeal to the Tory voters that have been sickened by the behaviour of the whole Boris period and know that there are enough "I vote Labour because my father did and his father did before him" Labour voters and so little of an alternative for those that are wavering that it tips the scales - but it's a horribly dangerous game. When you're accused of being something that the organisation you represent is in opposition to - deliberately playing around the idea that the accusations are correct is a dangerous game. Let me present it in an extreme - vegetarianism is good for the environment, it has some sort of impact on climate change. Hitler was a vegetarian. Corbyn was accused of anti-semitism - he's not an anti-semite - he'd have been on very rocky ground if he'd started an environmental speech with "Hitler was right when he said vegetarianism was good or us" for very obvious reasons. That's not to say that vegetarianism isn't good for us - just that going out of your way to find a supporting source that's the antithesis of what you should be is a very stupid idea. This isn't that, that's a very extreme example - but it's a similar principle; Sir Keir is accused of being a fair bit too Tory to lead the Labour party - he's not a Tory - he leads a party that by its nature should abhor Thatcher and Thatcherism. Law and order can rightfully be described as a cornerstone of any sort of positive ambitions for the future of UK society - but going out of your way to add "Like Thatcher said" into that mix is just a dumb decision - it gives your detractors something to prod at and makes you look like exactly the arsehole you're accused of being. There are a million ways to agree with the principle without mentioning a person whose principles are the opposite of those your party represents. I live in what has traditionally been a Tory safe seat - I'll be voting Labour at this election to try to get them out - I wish that what I were voting for could be something I was as proud of as I am of what I'll be voting against. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted March 25, 2023 Moderator Share Posted March 25, 2023 22 hours ago, LondonLax said: It’s because the Labour Party have lost the working class vote to the Tories. Their ‘base’ is now intellectual inner city liberals (like many of us on here perhaps?) and that is not enough of a constituency to win an election unfortunately. That's right I think. The Labour strategy though is the problem - they should be wondering how they can engage with that working class vote, how they bring it around, how they reconnect that whole group of people with Labour values, with politics that values society and puts people first - it's a very difficult task in a country dominated by a right wing press, but in my opinion it's the right path. Labour's strategy seems to be "The working class have drifted toward the Tories and we need their votes, so if we also drift towards the Tories, we can catch up with them and they'll vote for us". Now that might be true and it might win you an election - but jeez..... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted March 25, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted March 25, 2023 'The other option is so shit the alternative pack of meally mouthed shit stained bastards will have to do' isn't a ringing endorsement of anyone. And of course I'm sure the 'sensible left' were queuing up to support prior leadership at the ballot box in similar circumstances. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted March 25, 2023 Moderator Share Posted March 25, 2023 1 hour ago, OutByEaster? said: Let me present it in an extreme - vegetarianism is good for the environment, it has some sort of impact on climate change. Hitler was a vegetarian. Corbyn was accused of anti-semitism - he's not an anti-semite - he'd have been on very rocky ground if he'd started an environmental speech with "Hitler was right when he said vegetarianism was good or us" for very obvious reasons. That's not to say that vegetarianism isn't good for us - just that going out of your way to find a supporting source that's the antithesis of what you should be is a very stupid idea. It doesn't really work as an analogy though because Corbyn was never the opposion leader to the Nazi Party Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted March 25, 2023 Moderator Share Posted March 25, 2023 8 minutes ago, bickster said: It doesn't really work as an analogy though because Corbyn was never the oppositon leader to the Nazi Party Doesn't that make it even more ridiculous for Starmer? Surely when we're in a position where people are more willing to support Thatcher than Corbyn in order to back their leader you have to ask if the Labour party might perhaps be losing its way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakemineVanilla Posted March 25, 2023 Share Posted March 25, 2023 2 hours ago, Demitri_C said: I actually dont trust any of the main two parties to be honest.both have **** the country up in different ways. We just sit there and take it like mugs Stein Ringen's analysis confirms your view in terms of the economy and society: Blair's military ventures are another matter entirely. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wainy316 Posted March 25, 2023 Share Posted March 25, 2023 5 hours ago, villaajax said: Swapping Tory Blue for Tory Red won't make any real difference. It’s far from ideal but 1997 - 2008 were far more prosperous domestically than any other time in the last 50 years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted March 25, 2023 Share Posted March 25, 2023 1 hour ago, Chindie said: And of course I'm sure the 'sensible left' were queuing up to support prior leadership at the ballot box in similar circumstances. Labour still got over ten million votes at the 2019 election. Pretty sure they weren't all paid up Momentum members and "Woah, Je-re-my Corbyn" types. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted March 25, 2023 Author Share Posted March 25, 2023 4 hours ago, Davkaus said: Are you still blaming Labour for the global financial crisis? Wasnt the panedemic a global crisis too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted March 25, 2023 Author Share Posted March 25, 2023 3 hours ago, HKP90 said: You could always vote for a third party, and then the current lot will get back in. Ill probably will vote lib dems like i did last election Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted March 25, 2023 Share Posted March 25, 2023 5 minutes ago, Demitri_C said: Wasnt the panedemic a global crisis too? Yeah. Who's blaming the tories for covid? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted March 25, 2023 Author Share Posted March 25, 2023 39 minutes ago, Davkaus said: Yeah. Who's blaming the tories for covid? Not sure where you have been forthe last few years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted March 25, 2023 Share Posted March 25, 2023 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Demitri_C said: Not sure where you have been forthe last few years Literally nobody is blaming the tories for covid. I can only assume that you're confusing people being critical of the appalling shit that specific tories did during covid, with blaming them for the pandemic itself. This is a very fundamental difference, and not some semantic splitting of hairs. Similarly, it'd be perfectly reasonable to criticise specific policy failings of the Blair/Brown government that were economically unsuccessful and may have exacerbated some aspects of the GFC, but blaming them for the economy being in the shitter after a global financial meltdown is a bit silly. Edited March 25, 2023 by Davkaus 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted March 25, 2023 Author Share Posted March 25, 2023 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Davkaus said: Literally nobody is blaming the tories for covid. I can only assume that you're confusing people being critical of the appalling shit that specific tories did during covid, with blaming them for the pandemic itself. This is a very fundamental difference, and not some semantic splitting of hairs. Similarly, it'd be perfectly reasonable to criticise specific policy failings of the Blair/Brown government that were economically unsuccessful and may have exacerbated some aspects of the GFC, but blaming them for the economy being in the shitter after a global financial meltdown is a bit silly. I think also your also confusing my initial point im saying labour made a made a mess of the banking crisis when it occured (which we know was a global issue just like the pandemic was a global issue and tories made a absolute mess of that although it could have been much worse if it wasnt for the furlough scheme) My point is both governments at the time did a shit job at dealing with those major shit events Edited March 25, 2023 by Demitri_C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted March 25, 2023 Moderator Share Posted March 25, 2023 44 minutes ago, Demitri_C said: im saying labour made a made a mess of the banking crisis when it occured Objectively they absolutely did not. Quite the opposite. That's not me being partisan, I'm not party political. It's not even my personal assessment, it's general economists verdict, overall. I think even George Osbourne now he's not a Tory cabinet member or MP accepts this is the case, despite all the stuff he said when it was in his interests as chancellor to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post chrisp65 Posted March 25, 2023 Popular Post Share Posted March 25, 2023 As Starmer said, Fred West was right when he said every patio needs a strong foundation. 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted March 25, 2023 Moderator Share Posted March 25, 2023 "To paraphrase Gary Glitter, I am very much the leader, the Leader of this Labour party." 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted March 25, 2023 Share Posted March 25, 2023 Other than about £730 million - what is the difference between Dishy Rishi and Kier Starmer? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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