The Chairman Mao resembling, Monarchy hating, threat to Britain, Labour Party thread

[peterms]

This is utterly deranged.  Truly insane.

 

[Chindie]

It's completely absurd, and as clear as **** day what it's really about.

[bickster]

1 hour ago, peterms said:

This is utterly deranged.  Truly insane.

I concur, it's beyond ridiculous.

[magnkarl]

It's ridiculous to be sure - but it's also something that Labour has propelled there by being so utterly useless at getting rid of this problem within their own ranks. JC said himself in this very election that anyone found to be racist should be expelled, yet Labour are still giving out incredibly lenient discipline to idiots like Allan Williams et al. Though I'm sure many would disagree this EHRC report will show how useless Labour has been and to be quite frank people need to take responsibility for it. If Corbyn was as tough on this as he keeps saying he would not have these problems right now.

[Seat68]

I wonder why a Trump supporting Rabbi's organisation would make these comments. 

[Chindie]

3 hours ago, magnkarl said:

It's ridiculous to be sure - but it's also something that Labour has propelled there by being so utterly useless at getting rid of this problem within their own ranks. JC said himself in this very election that anyone found to be racist should be expelled, yet Labour are still giving out incredibly lenient discipline to idiots like Allan Williams et al. Though I'm sure many would disagree this EHRC report will show how useless Labour has been and to be quite frank people need to take responsibility for it. If Corbyn was as tough on this as he keeps saying he would not have these problems right now.

*ThunderbirdsLaughinggif*

There is nothing, nothing a Corbyn led Labour could do to quench this. Everything they do do is never enough. It used to just be about accepting a dubious definition, then it became something else, then something else... All with the same aim, all with the same voices, all with a truly remarkable correlation between those voices.

I kinda feel sorry for the Jewish people looking at this and seeing it for what it is, and being attacked by the people that are supposed to know their experience most.

[magnkarl]

21 hours ago, Chindie said:

*ThunderbirdsLaughinggif*

There is nothing, nothing a Corbyn led Labour could do to quench this. Everything they do do is never enough. It used to just be about accepting a dubious definition, then it became something else, then something else... All with the same aim, all with the same voices, all with a truly remarkable correlation between those voices.

I kinda feel sorry for the Jewish people looking at this and seeing it for what it is, and being attacked by the people that are supposed to know their experience most.

Again, and I keep saying this. As a Jew myself I have no problem seeing the Margaret Hodge's of this world for who they are. What I take issue with is the total wrong way that many Labour members look at idiots like Naz Shah, Williamson, Derek Hatton et all within their own ranks. The fact that Jews take offense to clear racism from people who have nothing better to do than paint all Jews as some sort of Israeli double agent has nothing to do with Margaret Hodge's hyperbola. It is possible to see two issues at the same time, Labour's issue is that they can't seem to separate the two. They keep saying that they are dealing with it but show no form of improvement.

Margaret Hodge = hyperbolic shameless agenda 

David Williamson, Derek Hatton, Naz Shah, Livingstone, shouting "ZIOOOO" at anyone protesting racism and talking about a Jewish conspiracy online = racist idiots and idiocy that doesn't belong in any political party. 

The figures of the EHRC report has been leaked, it shows that Labour has well over half of the cases they claim to have "dealt" with quickly still pending investigation. It's a shambles. 

As for Hodge, if Corbyn and his ilk would stop giving her PR she would fade to obscurity like the second rate MP she is, it's only because she keeps getting harassed online by Momentum types that she keeps having fodder to feed the media with.

Antisemitic crime is on the rise in our country. It's everyone's right to call it out where it is, and it is most definitely hiding or being hidden within Labour, even being pushed to the front in places like Liverpool Wavertree.

Edited December 10, 2019 by magnkarl

[blandy]

7 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

It is possible to see two issues at the same time, Labour's issue is that they can't seem to separate the two. They keep saying that they are dealing with it but show no form of improvement.

Margaret Hodge = hyperbolic shameless agenda 

David Williamson, Derek Hatton, Naz Shah, Livingstone, shouting "ZIOOOO" at anyone protesting racism and talking about a Jewish conspiracy online = racist idiots and idiocy that doesn't belong in any political party. 

The figures of the EHRC report has been leaked, it shows that Labour has well over half of the cases they claim to have "dealt" with quickly still pending investigation. It's a shambles. 

As for Hodge, if Corbyn and his ilk would stop giving her PR she would fade to obscurity like the second rate MP she is, it's only because she keeps getting harassed online by Momentum types that she keeps having fodder to feed the media with.

Antisemitic crime is on the rise in our country. It's everyone's right to call it out where it is, and it is most definitely hiding or being hidden within Labour, even being pushed to the front in places like Liverpool Wavertree.

This, completely.

The only comment I'd add is that "It is possible to see two issues at the same time" appears not to apply nearly as widely as one might hope.

[magnkarl]

1 hour ago, blandy said:

This, completely.

The only comment I'd add is that "It is possible to see two issues at the same time" appears not to apply nearly as widely as one might hope.

Agreed. And to be fair most of the people I know dislike Hodge as much as they dislike the Labour leadership as a whole for this saga. Both sides of this case just shows how far the party has fallen.

a) people like Hodge will want to mint political coin on the issue.

b) there are actual fairly extreme cases of antisemitism within Labour which are left uncontested due to what seems like an almost planned slow disciplinary procedure.

You'd think that Corbyn would want to eliminate the oxygen that Hodge's constant moaning gets by putting the issue to bed, yet the process seems as slow as ever.

Edited December 10, 2019 by magnkarl

[HanoiVillan]

2 hours ago, magnkarl said:

Agreed. And to be fair most of the people I know dislike Hodge as much as they dislike the Labour leadership as a whole for this saga. Both sides of this case just shows how far the party has fallen.

a) people like Hodge will want to mint political coin on the issue.

b) there are actual fairly extreme cases of antisemitism within Labour which are left uncontested due to what seems like an almost planned slow disciplinary procedure.

You'd think that Corbyn would want to eliminate the oxygen that Hodge's constant moaning gets by putting the issue to bed, yet the process seems as slow as ever.

You're not completely wrong, for sure, but it's also worth noting that part of the reason the process takes so long is that it's been clogged up with vexatious submissions from the likes of Hodge, who submitted a massive dossier of claimed instances of anti-semitism, many of which turned out not to be Labour party members. 

I'm not going to defend every aspect of Labour's internal disciplinary processes - not least because I don't know enough about them, but also because I'm sure they could still be improved. However, it's also pretty obvious that they have tried to improve them a lot since this scandal blew up, and that no amount of improvement would ever be enough for people for whom this issue is just a wedge. 

I agree with your general view on Hodge. There's a reason why she hasn't quit the party, despite constantly complaining about it in the media, and that reason is that she's first and foremost a diva who wants everything to be about her. I was sad that the election came before her trigger ballot happened. 

[blandy]

11 hours ago, HanoiVillan said:

it's also pretty obvious that they have tried to improve them a lot since this scandal blew up, and that no amount of improvement would ever be enough for people for whom this issue is just a wedge. 

Probably. Though lying about what they've done is not a good look. Claiming they've closed and dealt with cases, when they haven't. That sort of thing. The dealing with that plum, Williamson is another example.  And then there's all the stuff that JLM have complained about - interference in the process from the top of the party, that sort of thing.

It's worth remembering that the people highlighting the failings and the AS, are Labour MPs (now ex-MPs) Labour members (JLM) etc. Other Labour MPs who rallied outside parliament, with Labour members -these are not by any stretch of the imagination "anti-labour" forces. And the subsequent criticism of them, for who they are rather than addressing the reported problems, or even as well as, is utterly lamentable - "you're only complaining because..." before the complaint is even dealt with shows exactly how fair and equal the process has been. It feels that protecting the Leader, or leadership is more important than resolving to rid Labour of AS arses.

None of which means the RW press and the tories haven't had a field day with it, whilst doing rather less focussing on similar issues in the Tory party.

[markavfc40]

It is a sad state of affairs when the best that Labour can hope to achieve is a hung parliament but there is no way that can be seen as any kind of success. They are going to finish somewhere between 80 and 160 seats behind the Tories. A Tory government that have been brutal for 9 and a half years and are now led by a pathological liar and are overall a much more rabid bunch.

At worst we should be looking at Labour being the biggest party and whilst I accept the right wing media bias hasn't helped their cause to use that as anymore than a side issue would be a huge mistake. 

For me Labour in the main have good policies and with that being the case you therefore have to look at if the issue is those presenting those policies and the most prominent of those is obviously the leader. 

As much as I, and I am sure many others, will bitch, moan and point the finger at those foolish/selfish enough to vote for the Tories just as in the 2016 referendum and the US presidential election the fact is the opposing side won't have put up a good enough argument and made themselves attractive enough to vote for and that is a huge failing on their part.

Come Friday I can't see how Corbyn can stay on as leader and I just hope Labour have learned the lesson of the last 4 years as many of us are going to pay for their failing in choosing the wrong people to deliver their message.

Edited December 11, 2019 by markavfc40

[HanoiVillan]

16 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

It is a sad state of affairs when the best that Labour can hope to achieve is a hung parliament but there is no way that can be seen as any kind of success. They are going to finish somewhere between 80 and 160 seats behind the Tories. A Tory government that have been brutal for 9 and a half years and are now led by a pathological liar and are overall a much more rabid bunch.

At worst we should be looking at Labour being the biggest party and whilst I accept the right wing media bias hasn't helped their cause to use that as anymore than a side issue would be a huge mistake. 

For me Labour in the main have good policies and with that being the case you therefore have to look at if the issue is those presenting those policies and the most prominent of those is obviously the leader. 

As much as I, and I am sure many others, will bitch, moan and point the finger at those foolish/selfish enough to vote for the Tories just as in the 2016 referendum and the US presidential election the fact is the opposing side won't have put up a good enough argument and made themselves attractive enough to vote for and that is a huge failing on their part.

Come Friday I can't see how Corbyn can stay on as leader and I just hope Labour have learned the lesson of the last 4 years as many of us are going to pay for their failing in choosing the wrong people to deliver their message.

I can't 'like' the post as I don't really 'like' the conclusion, but despite disliking it I do agree. We're at a point where, unless there is a systematic polling error, Labour look set to lose seats, and not just a few of them, and I don't see how Corbyn could stay on as leader after that. Not to mention that a Tory majority government should be expected to last 5 years, at which point he would really be too old to be embarking on a government anyway. 

I think you can make a reasonable argument that some of the criticisms he has faced have been significantly less worthy of merit than others, but the reality is he has faced them and the same stories will not go away while he remains leader. Of course a new left leader will also face a monstering, but hopefully they will have learned from at least some of the self-inflicted wounds of the last four years. 

Corbyn himself is the least inspiring part of 'Corbynism', and if the polls are right it may be time to cut off the head to preserve the body. 

(I hope the polls are wrong). 

Edited December 11, 2019 by HanoiVillan

[blandy]

54 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

A Tory government that have been brutal for 9 and a half years and are now led by a pathological liar and are overall a much more rabid bunch.

At worst we should be looking at Labour being the biggest party and whilst I accept the right wing media bias hasn't helped their cause to use that as anymore than a side issue would be a huge mistake. 

Yes, exactly. I know some can't see it, or have a more nuanced view, or whatever, but to me (and I may yet be proven wrong) Corbyn was never, ever, going to end up as Prime Minister. I mean that's what the Labour Party is ultimately for, isn't it? to have a Labour Government do Labour policies and mould the Country in Labour ways.

They picked the wrong bloke to be leader, they knew they did, but various inadequates were not up to the task of rectifying that mistake. Owen Smith and these other no-marks have to have their share of the blame.

"Corbynism" is far too tribal, far too "you're either with us or against us". And when you pitch a party that way, as being the converted special ones of virtue v the evil everyone else, you're painting yourself into a corner, alienating potential "soft" supporters and blocking your own prospects.

Personally,  I don't want the tories to have a majority or be in charge, and that means that Labour needs to do well enough to stop that, but it's pyrrhic. Corbyn Labour is not fit for purpose, and not being the tories is hardly a selling point.

What an utter shit-show.

[LondonLax]

Yes, frustrating that it will take the disaster of Brexit for UK Labour to wake up and smell the coffee (presuming they do actually dump their leader after a second lost election) when the writing has been on the wall for a number of years now. 

[Xann]

Anyone suggesting shutting the tax exploits and rebalancing wealth will be 'unelectable'.

Just kick the can down the street whilst the Tory filth sell everything.

Your kids can pick up the bigger mess down the line, eh?

[Dr_Pangloss]

If Labour is heading for where the polls suggests then the only course of action come Friday will be to set the wheels in motion for removing Corbyn as leader and removing some of the more high profile idiots (such Abbot, Thornberry, Gwynne, Butler, McDonnell) from prominent positions. 

Labour could do a lot worse than Keir Starmer as leader to be honest. 

[StefanAVFC]

 

There just isn't a balance.

Both parties have a serious problem. Yet people namecheck Corbyn directly when it comes to antisemitism, despite him never saying anything antisemitic, yet ignore both The Tory party's issue with Islamophobia, and Johnson's own comments on Muslims.

[bickster]

This is worth a (long) read on the Labour AS issue

Quote

Everything I never wanted to have to know about Labour and antisemitism

Dec 7 · 45 min read
I want the last four years of my life back

Recently I’ve been in a lot of interactions with people who are totally new to the conversation about Labour and antisemitism. I have found it very difficult to articulate my perspective on it. Not because there’s nothing to say, but because there’s so much to say it’s overwhelming. And because it’s complicated. Very complicated.

First of all, if you’re new to this and listening, thank you. I know a lot of my fellow activists will be annoyed that I’m taking this tone but at this point I am so exhausted from four years of begging people to listen on this subject that I am grateful for any new allies and support. If you are listening, you’re already doing more than most.

One of the most devastating aspects of Labour’s antisemitism crisis has been seeing the sheer volume of people I like, respect, even consider friends, denying or minimising this issue which has caused me so much personal devastation. Tweet after tweet from moderates and pals, suggestions that people who don’t hold their nose and vote for Labour are “idiots” or “as bad as Tories” or “responsible for homelessness”. I will speak more about this at the end of the article, if you get that far. Knowing what I know about Labour and antisemitism and seeing it so callously disregarded by people I hugely respect has been one of the most tiring and demoralising things I’ve ever been through.

I have done my best to approach this as dispassionately as possible, but it has been very difficult. I am passionate. I am angry. I am hurt. I am frightened. Most of all, I am utterly exhausted. This article has taken over a week, a team of dedicated volunteer researchers and fact checkers (who I cannot thank enough for their time and energy) and the very last of my reserves.

I am glad it has done so, because while I was writing this piece, Jewish Labour Movement’s redacted submission to the EHRC (The Equality and Human Rights Commission, currently investigating the Labour Party for institutional antisemitism) was leaked. I will address the damning report, which can be read in full here, later in the article.

This piece is long. If you look up TL;DR in the dictionary, it’s just a link to this piece. But I’ve done my best to keep it as simple and easy to understand as possible. And if you are truly a committed anti-racist who wants to understand what’s going on, it’s worth taking the time to read and digest it. Other, smarter, people have written extensively on this topic and I’ll hyperlink to those along the way.

Clicky for article on medium

[bickster]

1 minute ago, Dr_Pangloss said:

If Labour is heading for where the polls suggests then the only course of action come Friday will be to set the wheels in motion for removing Corbyn as leader and removing some of the more high profile idiots (such Abbot, Thornberry, Gwynne, Butler, McDonnell) from prominent positions. 

Labour could do a lot worse than Keir Starmer as leader to be honest. 

Corbyn may go of his own accord but he'll be replaced with a like minded idiot, you have no chance of the others stepping down and a change of direction. In the words of The Redskins... they'll "Keep On Keeping On"