Risso Posted November 22, 2019 Share Posted November 22, 2019 15 minutes ago, snowychap said: Everybody else? You mean all those who pay for private schooling for their children not actually everybody else. I sort of hoped that was obvious considering it was the subject at hand. But if it helps satisfy your pedantry, "everybody else who sends their children to private school". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mic09 Posted November 22, 2019 Share Posted November 22, 2019 1 hour ago, bickster said: Not true, it had nothing at all to do with my decision. My decision was based on religious affiliations with local authority run schools I'd do the same again faced with the same options. If religion wasn't so insidiously ingrained in the schools here I would never have made that decision Considering that religion is ever present (whether we like it or not) do you not see any merit in involving religious education into the schooling system should it be done properly? I.e. UK is a massively multicultural place with people of different beliefs - is there no benefit in getting children to understand what these might be? There is also a wider international perceptive to look at it. When you look at things such as Israel/Palestine problem, is it not a good idea for children to understand what are the underlining issues as such? How are we supposed to fix such problems if we don't even understand why the Jews feel so strongly about that land? And that's not even going deeper into issues such a terrorism etc. Just wondering on your take on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted November 22, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted November 22, 2019 There must be a violin small enough for private school parents somewhere... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted November 22, 2019 Share Posted November 22, 2019 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Risso said: I sort of hoped that was obvious considering it was the subject at hand. But if it helps satisfy your pedantry, "everybody else who sends their children to private school". It's not pedantry but I'm not surprised that you've chosen to frame it like that as it allows you to ignore the point being implied, i.e. that it is about the removal of an exemption that is only (really*) enjoyed by people who can afford something* that others cannot (on the whole - obviously there is a group of people who can afford it who do not choose to send their kids to fee-paying schools). *Edit: I also grant there may be a small few who will rack up debt in order to fund this just so as to cover all bases. Edited November 22, 2019 by snowychap 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted November 22, 2019 Moderator Share Posted November 22, 2019 27 minutes ago, Mic09 said: Considering that religion is ever present (whether we like it or not) do you not see any merit in involving religious education into the schooling system should it be done properly? There is no merit in religion. It's one of the few things Marx got right You appear to have confused religious studies with religion in education. You are talking about people understanding the differences between different religions, this isn't a problem. I'm talking about churches running schools and half an hour of practising religion every morning. That is state sponsored child abuse 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mic09 Posted November 22, 2019 Share Posted November 22, 2019 9 minutes ago, bickster said: There is no merit in religion. It's one of the few things Marx got right You appear to have confused religious studies with religion in education. You are talking about people understanding the differences between different religions, this isn't a problem. I'm talking about churches running schools and half an hour of practising religion every morning. That is state sponsored child abuse While you think there is no merit to religion, other might be religious so it might be a good idea to give children an education that will teach them about it. I agree, that isn't what we are getting now. Thanks for clarifying that, I haven't confused them but many people use the term interchangeably without giving it much thought so I wanted your take on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Risso Posted November 22, 2019 Share Posted November 22, 2019 18 minutes ago, snowychap said: It's not pedantry but I'm not surprised that you've chosen to frame it like that as it allows you to ignore the point being implied, i.e. that it is about the removal of an exemption that is only (really*) enjoyed by people who can afford something* that others cannot (on the whole - obviously there is a group of people who can afford it who do not choose to send their kids to fee-paying schools). *Edit: I also grant there may be a small few who will rack up debt in order to fund this just so as to cover all bases. Sorry, what exemption is it that you think's being enjoyed? Education in 99.9% of cases is not something that VAT is charged on. Just about anybody that charges for education, eg colleges, private tuition, vocational training establishments, are all exempt. Which is the way it should be. Our kids school doesn't take a penny in public money, does a very good job of educating children, does loads for the local community, and has lots of children from the local area on full bursaries. If the state sector is not being funded properly, then it's not because private schools exist. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted November 22, 2019 Moderator Share Posted November 22, 2019 What's the percentage of children in the UK that are in private education? Edit: Google says about 7% and rising. Can i be the first to say creeping privatisation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted November 22, 2019 Share Posted November 22, 2019 I don't know how you can possibly hope to achieve equality if the very fundamentals of early-life education are not set on equal terms. Whichever way you spin it, public vs private education essentially boils down to the haves and have-nots......further strengthening divisions in society. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted November 22, 2019 Moderator Share Posted November 22, 2019 35 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said: What's the percentage of children in the UK that are in private education? Edit: Google says about 7% and rising. Can i be the first to say creeping privatisation? You can, or you can realise it's not that, it's parents increasingly becoming aware of how shit LA controlled education is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted November 22, 2019 Moderator Share Posted November 22, 2019 35 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said: I don't know how you can possibly hope to achieve equality if the very fundamentals of early-life education are not set on equal terms. Whichever way you spin it, public vs private education essentially boils down to the haves and have-nots......further strengthening divisions in society. Absolutely correct but you'll never win the battle whilst the current LA Controlled education is so bad. That needs fixing first. That is the starting block, you can't attempt to force more children into an already overloaded and failing system Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Risso Posted November 22, 2019 Share Posted November 22, 2019 If McDonnell's Marxist vision of life without private schools comes to pass, does anybody really think that there aren't still going to be massive inequalities. Just as they do now, the better off parents will move to the better off areas with the better schools. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted November 22, 2019 Share Posted November 22, 2019 6 minutes ago, Risso said: If McDonnell's Marxist vision of life without private schools comes to pass, does anybody really think that there aren't still going to be massive inequalities. Just as they do now, the better off parents will move to the better off areas with the better schools. Labour's plan is not (only or primarily) to fix social inequality through altering the education system. You'll be horrified to learn that they have a variety of other 'Marxist' schemes to reduce inequality between the richest and the poorest! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted November 22, 2019 Share Posted November 22, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Risso said: Sorry, what exemption is it that you think's being enjoyed? A 20% tax break on a luxury good. A private education for a school-aged child is not the same as all other education. 1 hour ago, Risso said: does loads for the local community, and has lots of children from the local area on full bursaries Well done to it. So do pretty much all private schools - largely in order to maintain their charitable status (though it is possible that the particular school in question doesn't have that and is doing it purely out of the goodness of its heart, or to improve their position in exam results tables or for a bit of good PR). 1 hour ago, Risso said: If the state sector is not being funded properly, then it's not because private schools exist. I'm not arguing against the existence of private schools or private schooling and tutoring. I'm questioning their status and their funding. I'm questioning the funding methods by which my education was supplied set against how it was for others in my street or with whom I played in school holidays. I was given more of a chance at their expense and I don't think that was or is fair. But... 'class warfare'... The brouhaha about the potential increase in fees might be able to be viewed as more of a problem if school fees over the past couple of decades hadn't increased above inflation and average earnings with no apparent corresponding decrease in demand for school places (it has remained pretty consistent over that time period, I believe - though that may be because of an increased number of overseas pupils). Edited November 22, 2019 by snowychap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meregreen Posted November 22, 2019 Share Posted November 22, 2019 Sadly, many who send their kids to private schools, have no vested interest in improving state schools. Be interesting to see what percentage of those in government, be it state or local, educate their kids outside the state system. Real improvements will, I think, come only when all our children benefit. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted November 22, 2019 Moderator Share Posted November 22, 2019 1 hour ago, bickster said: LA Controlled education is so bad. LA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Risso Posted November 22, 2019 Share Posted November 22, 2019 37 minutes ago, snowychap said: A 20% tax break on a luxury good. A private education for a school-aged child is not the same as all other education. And at that point I'm out, it's clearly not worth the effort of trying to have a sensible conversation on the subject. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Risso Posted November 22, 2019 Share Posted November 22, 2019 Just now, OutByEaster? said: LA? Local Authority? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted November 22, 2019 Share Posted November 22, 2019 2 hours ago, Risso said: If the state sector is not being funded properly, then it's not because private schools exist. If private schools didn’t exist and people of wealth and influence had to send their kids to state school, do you think state school would be as shit and under resourced as it currently is? 1 hour ago, Risso said: If McDonnell's Marxist vision of life without private schools comes to pass, does anybody really think that there aren't still going to be massive inequalities. Just as they do now, the better off parents will move to the better off areas with the better schools. I don’t think anyone has suggested a fair education will resolve all inequalities. It will improve the life chances of a great many and it will potentially allow great people to realise their potential, to the benefit of us all. I’m not suggesting it would be perfect, I’m suggesting it would be less rigged in favour of children that have parents with money. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted November 22, 2019 Moderator Share Posted November 22, 2019 2 hours ago, Risso said: If the state sector is not being funded properly, then it's not because private schools exist. I think that's true, but I also think it's possibly less important than: If private schools exist, it's because the the state sector is not being funded properly. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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