Rugeley Villa Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 just because the problem in palestine and syria is much worse does not make the situation in paris anything less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted January 9, 2015 Moderator Share Posted January 9, 2015 It doesn't, but it's a part of the solution. There are only two ways in which this can be solved, we either welcome Islam into an integrated society that treats the people of the middle east with the same value as the people of the west, deradicalising the region and the religion through a different approach that removes the anger that allows this festering hatred to develop and become terrorism - or we kill every muslim on the planet. I favour one of those solutions over the other. Probably not the one Tony Blair favours. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 As I've said before, I'm really not looking forward to our Paris trip next month now. It's mainly to take my daughter to Disneyland, but we did want to go to the city to look around. Contemplating just sticking to Disney now, it's just not worth it and all that matters to me is my daughter. I give you two days of Disney food prices before you decide to break out and give proper Paris a go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted January 9, 2015 VT Supporter Share Posted January 9, 2015 Probably the safest time to go right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted January 9, 2015 Moderator Share Posted January 9, 2015 Things are going to get rough in France. at somepoint the whole of europe is going to get rough, this problem will worsen in europe and people will not stand for much more of this. its time things changed because there are parts of countries in europe that are being eaten by this cancer and until the problem is dealt with it will spread like cancer does. its getting beyond a joke now. So how do you think people in Palestine and Syria feel? Shi'ite They'll all meet again some Sunni day 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugeley Villa Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 It doesn't, but it's a part of the solution. There are only two ways in which this can be solved, we either welcome Islam into an integrated society that treats the people of the middle east with the same value as the people of the west, deradicalising the region and the religion through a different approach that removes the anger that allows this festering hatred to develop and become terrorism - or we kill every muslim on the planet. I favour one of those solutions over the other. Probably not the one Tony Blair favours. can islam integrate succesfully though? im not very well travelled like some and have not mixed with any other race or religion which is so different to the values and views as my own so excuse me if im coming across a bit close to the knuckle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 You would think that if they wanted to slip away they would have had plenty of opportunity to do so. Ended probably as they wanted it to. I thought they were found rather quickly all in all ... Almost as if they were already known to the authorities ... Which they probably were How long before we enter minority report style policing whereby we round them up before they comment a terrorist act ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted January 9, 2015 Moderator Share Posted January 9, 2015 I thought they were found rather quickly all in all ... Almost as if they were already known to the authorities ... Which they probably were After the fact perhaps, but personally I thought the initial response was rather woeful. The shooting went on for around 10 minutes before they made their escape in which time the two officers on the scene were woefully ill equipped to deal with the situation and tragically lost their lives. There is absolutely no way that two armed men could spend 10 mins shooting in central London and make their get away, armed Police would be all over them in minutes. They wouldn't have got out of the building. So yes caught them quickly after their escape but their initial response seemingly was woefully inadequate and surely questions will need to be asked about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 It doesn't, but it's a part of the solution. There are only two ways in which this can be solved, we either welcome Islam into an integrated society that treats the people of the middle east with the same value as the people of the west, deradicalising the region and the religion through a different approach that removes the anger that allows this festering hatred to develop and become terrorism - or we kill every muslim on the planet. I favour one of those solutions over the other. Probably not the one Tony Blair favours. can islam integrate succesfully though? im not very well travelled like some and have not mixed with any other race or religion which is so different to the values and views as my own so excuse me if im coming across a bit close to the knuckle. So what's the solution? Just because it's different doesn't mean you can't integrate. Genuinely, please tell me what's different to your own views and I'll address it as best I can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 It doesn't, but it's a part of the solution. There are only two ways in which this can be solved, we either welcome Islam into an integrated society that treats the people of the middle east with the same value as the people of the west, deradicalising the region and the religion through a different approach that removes the anger that allows this festering hatred to develop and become terrorism - or we kill every muslim on the planet. I favour one of those solutions over the other. Probably not the one Tony Blair favours. can islam integrate succesfully though? im not very well travelled like some and have not mixed with any other race or religion which is so different to the values and views as my own so excuse me if im coming across a bit close to the knuckle. yes Islam can integrate During the Napoleonic wars some British newspapers and cartoonists would draw the French as clawed monkey like creatures as an insult. Back then the vast majority of the population would have no means of knowing what a French person was, other than an alien and our enemy. They would have no real concept of where France was, or what a 'normal' French person wanted from life. A ship was wrecked off Hartlepool and a monkey dressed up as a little sailor was washed up. The poorly educated, scared, angry mob of locals presumed fairly reasonably that this must be a French person. It couldn't speak english for a start. So they tried it (to be fair to the little alien bastard frog) as a spy, declared it guilty and hung it. education and familiarity is the key Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 I thought they were found rather quickly all in all ... Almost as if they were already known to the authorities ... Which they probably were After the fact perhaps, but personally I thought the initial response was rather woeful. The shooting went on for around 10 minutes before they made their escape in which time the two officers on the scene were woefully ill equipped to deal with the situation and tragically lost their lives. There is absolutely no way that two armed men could spend 10 mins shooting in central London and make their get away, armed Police would be all over them in minutes. They wouldn't have got out of the building. So yes caught them quickly after their escape but their initial response seemingly was woefully inadequate and surely questions will need to be asked about that. i was thinking specifically about after the event with my post but agree with all you've written there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 It doesn't, but it's a part of the solution. There are only two ways in which this can be solved, we either welcome Islam into an integrated society that treats the people of the middle east with the same value as the people of the west, deradicalising the region and the religion through a different approach that removes the anger that allows this festering hatred to develop and become terrorism - or we kill every muslim on the planet. I favour one of those solutions over the other. Probably not the one Tony Blair favours. can islam integrate succesfully though? im not very well travelled like some and have not mixed with any other race or religion which is so different to the values and views as my own so excuse me if im coming across a bit close to the knuckle. yes Islam can integrate During the Napoleonic wars some British newspapers and cartoonists would draw the French as clawed monkey like creatures as an insult. Back then the vast majority of the population would have no means of knowing what a French person was, other than an alien and our enemy. They would have no real concept of where France was, or what a 'normal' French person wanted from life. A ship was wrecked off Hartlepool and a monkey dressed up as a little sailor was washed up. The poorly educated, scared, angry mob of locals presumed fairly reasonably that this must be a French person. It couldn't speak english for a start. So they tried it (to be fair to the little alien bastard frog) as a spy, declared it guilty and hung it. education and familiarity is the key You've obviously not been to Hartlepool , the events would be the same in 2015 The world is becoming a smaller place but you'd be amazed at the comments that I get aimed at me when I tell people where I'm about to visit or where I've been .... There genuinely is a lot of ignorance about the world in general , not just Islam 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarewsEyebrowDesigner Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 what about they dropped an ID!how convenient!1 FALSE FLAG! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted January 9, 2015 Moderator Share Posted January 9, 2015 The world is becoming a smaller place but you'd be amazed at the comments that I get aimed at me when I tell people where I'm about to visit or where I've been .... There genuinely is a lot of ignorance about the world in general , not just Islam Stop talking to American's then Back to the Police for a moment, I actually think it is a little off how quickly they identified the suspects. I also think the behaviour of the brothers was a little odd after the fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Part of me thinks they should have shot them with tranquiliser darts and tattooed mo cartoons on their faces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 I can easily see why Muslims feel there is a wholly hypocritical double standard about what is considered fair game.Isn't the point that Hebdo also supposedly ran these kinds of things against all religions? But when they ran something which was perceived as anti-Jewish, they sacked the cartoonist, following complaints. Here. Which leaves the "we offend everyone equally, we just don't care" rhetoric looking a little threadbare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 The world is becoming a smaller place but you'd be amazed at the comments that I get aimed at me when I tell people where I'm about to visit or where I've been .... There genuinely is a lot of ignorance about the world in general , not just Islam Stop talking to American's then Back to the Police for a moment, I actually think it is a little off how quickly they identified the suspects. I also think the behaviour of the brothers was a little odd after the fact. They were known wanted men. I don't think it would have been too difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 This was withdrawn from the Sydney Morning Herald last August, when Israeli death squads were murdering Palestinian children. An apology was offered for printing it, apparently. I can easily see why Muslims feel there is a wholly hypocritical double standard about what is considered fair game. The SMH hasn't run anything that would be considered offensive to Muslim groups as far as I'm aware, not sure how they can be accused of a double standard in the way you imply? Sorry, poorly explained. Not a reference to SMH in particular, was a general point about what is acceptable vis a vis different groups - also see reply to Snowy just above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 A blog that I came across. I'm not sure I agree with him much or totally but I thought it was well put (lots of missed out cartoons that are available through the links):linkIn the Wake of Charlie Hebdo, Free Speech Does Not Mean Freedom From Criticismby Jacob CanfieldJanuary 7, 2015 12:49 pmOn Wednesday morning, the French satirical paper Charlie Hebdo was attacked by three masked gunmen, armed with kalashnikovs, who stormed the building and killed ten of its staff and two police officers. The gunmen are currently understood to be Muslim extremists. This attack came minutes after the paper tweeted this drawing of ISIS leader Abu Bakr Al-Baghdadi.(“Best wishes, by the way.” Baghdadi: “And especially good health!”)An armed attack on a newspaper is shocking, but it is not even the first time Hebdo has been the subject of terrorist attacks. Gawker has a good summary of past controversies and attacks involving Hebdo. Most famously, the magazine’s offices were firebombed in 2011, after they printed an issue depicting the Prophet Muhammad on the cover.In the face of such an obvious attack on free speech, voicing anything except grief-stricken support is seen by many as disrespectful. Tom Spurgeon at The Comics Reporter, one of the first American comics sources to thoroughly cover the attack, quickly tweeted this:...When faced with a terrorist attack against a satirical newspaper, the appropriate response seems obvious. Don’t let the victims be silenced. Spread their work as far as it can possibly go. Laugh in the face of those savage murderers who don’t understand satire.In this case, it is the wrong response.Here’s what’s difficult to parse in the face of tragedy: yes, Charlie Hebdo is a French satirical newspaper. Its staff is white. Its cartoons often represent a certain, virulently racist brand of French xenophobia. While they generously claim to ‘attack everyone equally,’ the cartoons they publish are intentionally anti-Islam, and frequently sexist and homophobic.Here, for context, are some of the cartoons they recently published....(Yes, that last one depicts Boko Haram sex slaves as welfare queens.)These are, by even the most generous assessment, incredibly racist cartoons. Hebdo’s goal is to provoke, and these cartoons make it very clear who the white editorial staff was interested in provoking: France’s incredibly marginalized, often attacked, Muslim immigrant community.Even in a fresh-off-the-press, glowing BBC profile of Charb, Hebdo’s murdered editor, he comes across as a racist asshole.Charb had strongly defended Charlie Hebdo’s cartoons featuring the Prophet Muhammad.“Muhammad isn’t sacred to me,” he told the Associated Press in 2012, after the magazine’s offices had been fire-bombed.“I don’t blame Muslims for not laughing at our drawings. I live under French law. I don’t live under Koranic law.”Now, I understand that calling someone a ‘racist asshole’ after their murder is a callous thing to do, and I don’t do it lightly. This isn’t ambiguous, though: the editorial staff of Hebdo consistently aimed to provoke Muslims. They ascribe to the same edgy-white-guy mentality that many American cartoonists do: nothing is sacred, sacred targets are funnier, lighten up, criticism is censorship. And just like American cartoonists, they and their supporters are wrong. White men punching down is not a recipe for good satire, and needs to be called out. People getting upset does not prove that the satire was good. And, this is the hardest part, the murder of the satirists in question does not prove that their satire was good. Their satire was bad, and remains bad. Their satire was racist, and remains racist.The response to the attacks by hack cartoonists the world over has been swift. While many are able to keep pretty benign:...Several of the cartoons sweeping Twitter stooped to drawing hook-nosed Muslim caricatures, reminiscent of Hebdo’s house style....Perhaps most offensively, this Shaw cartoon (incorrectly attributed to Robert Mankoff) from a few years back swept Twitter, paired with the hashtag #CharlieHebdo:...Political correctness did not kill twelve people at the Charlie Hebdo offices. To talk about the attack as an attack by “political correctness” is the most disgusting, self-serving martyr bullshit I can imagine. To invoke this (bad) Shaw cartoon in relation to the Hebdo murders is to assert that cartoons should never be criticized. To invoke this garbage cartoon is to assert that white, male cartoonists should never have to hear any complaints when they gleefully attack marginalized groups.Changing your twitter avatar to a drawing of the Prophet Muhammad is a racist thing to do, even in the face of a terrorist attack. The attitude that Muslims need to be ‘punished’ is xenophobic and distressing. The statement, “JE SUIS CHARLIE” works to erase and ignore the magazine’s history of xenophobia, racism, and homophobia. For us to truly honor the victims of a terrorist attack on free speech, we must not spread hateful racism blithely, and we should not take pride in extreme attacks on oppressed and marginalized peoples....is gross and inappropriate. To simplify the attack on the Charlie Hebdo offices as “Good, Valiant Westerners vs. Evil, Savage Muslims” is not only racist, it’s dangerously overstated. Cartoonists (especially political cartoonists) generally reinforce the status quo, and they tend to be white men. Calling fellow cartoonists TO ARMS is calling other white men to arms against already marginalized people. The inevitable backlash against Muslims has begun in earnest....This is the worst.The fact that twelve people are dead over cartoons is hateful, and I can only pray that their attackers are brought to justice. Free speech is an important part of our society, but, it should always go without saying, free speech does not mean freedom from criticism. Criticism IS speech – to honor “free speech martyrs” by shouting down any criticism of their work is both ironic and depressing.In summary:Nobody should have been killed over those cartoons.**** those cartoons.- See more at: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:r6m7Up8qmNoJ:www.hoodedutilitarian.com/2015/01/in-the-wake-of-charlie-hebdo-free-speech-does-not-mean-freedom-from-criticism/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us#sthash.giKCfMsv.dpufI'd like to pick out one part of the above:The fact that twelve people are dead over cartoons is hateful, and I can only pray that their attackers are brought to justice. Free speech is an important part of our society, but, it should always go without saying, free speech does not mean freedom from criticism. Criticism IS speech – to honor “free speech martyrs” by shouting down any criticism of their work is both ironic and depressing.I think Mr cartoon should be informed that Muslims aren't a race. He falls into the criticism of Islam = racist trap Apologies, tried to remove most of the quote, but it's not easy on a tablet... Sorry Bucks, disagree. Seen this a lot in the last 24 hours, it's a linguistic debating point, nothing more. Yes, Islam is a religion not a race. Yes, Islamophobia is racism. Both can be true; are true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Yes, I hope they are taken alive, and dealt with in court, then sent to prison. I also hope it is all dealt with rather efficiently and quietly, and we never hear from them again. Both hopes dashed, I fear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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