Margaret Thatcher dies of a stroke.

[snowychap]

It is like everything else on here simply opinion, but one based on direct observation. The 80's under Thatcher wasn't a diabolical time for my working class family, or our working class neighbours, my school friends (many of whom had parents who exercised the right to buy) or relatives.

So it is anecdotal support by someone who was enriched by her policies? That's hardly 'direct observation' of how things panned out across the board, Jon.

I haven't questioned whether she (and her government) improved things for some people - I would assuredly support the idea that she did and that is how she came to win '83 and '87 as you seem to get to win elections in this country by looking after a recognised client voter base rather than acting in the interests of the country as a whole.

FWIW, my family did fine from Thatch policies directly (I was certainly directly helped by her assisted places scheme) but I (and some members of my family) still consider that the policies that she enacted and the legacy that she left far outwiegh any personal benefit we may have taken (as a result of indirect and direct observation).

[Awol]

It is like everything else on here simply opinion, but one based on direct observation. The 80's under Thatcher wasn't a diabolical time for my working class family, or our working class neighbours, my school friends (many of whom had parents who exercised the right to buy) or relatives.

So it is anecdotal support by someone who was enriched by her policies? That's hardly 'direct observation' of how things panned out across the board, Jon.

I haven't questioned whether she (and her government) improved things for some people - I would assuredly support the idea that she did and that is how she came to win '83 and '87 as you seem to get to win elections in this country by looking after a recognised client voter base rather than acting in the interests of the country as a whole.

FWIW, my family did fine from Thatch policies directly (I was certainly directly helped by her assisted places scheme) but I (and some members of my family) still consider that the policies that she enacted and the legacy that she left far outwiegh any personal benefit we may have taken (as a result of indirect and direct observation).

It is direct observation of the world I lived in as child/teen, not a claim that it was universal across the UK.. I've said it wasn't all gravy for everyone and was pointing out that accusations that Thatcher was only good for the upper class is equally wrong. Khalas, that's all.

[CarewsEyebrowDesigner]

Saw this on twatter

 

"Not a lot of love for Margaret Thatcher in Ireland. As an enemy of the state she sits somewhere between Oliver Cromwell & Thierry Henry."

[snowychap]

It is direct observation of the world I lived in as child/teen, not a claim that it was universal across the UK.

Your claim, mate, was as follows:

Except she was good for the middle classes and many of the working class who expressed that by voting for her.

Not that she was 'good for you and those you knew'.

Sorry, Jon, not washing.

...pointing out that accusations that Thatcher was only good for the upper class is equally wrong.

Those accusations would appear to me to be completely wrong, too, but that doesn't help you with the above.

[Corcaigh]

Saw this on twatter

 

"Not a lot of love for Margaret Thatcher in Ireland. As an enemy of the state she sits somewhere between Oliver Cromwell & Thierry Henry."

 

Surprisingly enough, at least in the 26, Thatcher is more popular then you might think. Both for her hardline stance on the PIRA as well as her no nonsense attitude to the unions. Some even ask as to where is our Thatcher! 

[brommy]

I think some of the comments about thatcher and her family probably say more about the people making them than thatcher and her family.

Whilst I'm not one to aim poor taste comments at any dead person or their family, I think your comment displays a massive amount of ignorance and/or naivety.

[chrisp65]

It'll be interesting to see what questioning there is of the cost of a ceremonial funeral. Estimates of cost for the last two similar funerals (Diana and Queen mum) are that they each cost circa £4M. Given all the variables, inflation, a bit less pomp, potentially a little more security and all that, another £4M spend looks like a decent guess. So, Margaret Thatcher, who has legitimately received over £500,000 in expenses in the last 5 years, will now create a £4M funeral bill.

 

There is a little irony that a woman that strove to reduce state expenditure and to privatise much of what had been in public ownership will now have such a send off. Whilst I'm sure it won't be quite as direct as this, it's worth noting the first quarter of a million bedroom tax receipts of £14 a time from those that are often relatively poor, will simply go to offset the state funeral of the woman that reduced council house stocks. Reduced them by selling them off but not allowing the income from sales to be used to build new ones.

[Chindie]

I won't be shedding a tear for her. The best I might say of was that she was driven. But her politics was hateful and helped forge a culture of greed and 'I'm alright Jack'.

I can see why many might celebrate her death. I wouldn't bemoan it. I don't think it deserves what I would describe as faux outrage out there, despite how distasteful it is. I more than suspect a few voices out there (not necessarily in this thread) crying foul about it would be keeping schtum had she worn a red rose.

I'm certainly at a loss as to how shes deserving of such a lavish funeral.

Edited April 8, 2013 by Chindie

[snowychap]

Bloody Hell. Newsnight have got Henry Kissinger out of his coffin for this.

[snowychap]

Here's a good call for anyone ever, anywhere: don't get Charles Moore pleading your case.

[JB]

Yes. Just, yes.

http://m.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/08/margaret-thatcher-death-etiquette

[MrDuck]

From Billy Bragg:

 

This is not a time for celebration. The death of Margaret Thatcher is nothing more than a salient reminder of how Britain got into the mess that we are in today. Of why ordinary working people are no longer able to earn enough from one job to support a family; of why there is a shortage of decent affordable housing; of why domestic growth is driven by credit, not by real incomes; of why tax-payers are forced to top up wages; of why a spiteful government seeks to penalise the poor for having an extra bedroom; of why Rupert Murdoch became so powerful; of why cynicism and greed became the hallmarks of our society.

[bickster]

This hangover has been 30 years in the making. I look forward to it

[bickster]

I think some of the comments about thatcher and her family probably say more about the people making them than thatcher and her family.

Whilst I'm not one to aim poor taste comments at any dead person or their family, I think your comment displays a massive amount of ignorance and/or naivety.

Well being as her son is a breaker of arms embargoes and her daughter talks of golliwogs, really wtf do you expect?

Thoughts with her family?

Really?

DING FUC*ING DONG

[bickster]

Except she was good for the middle classes and many of the working class who expressed that by voting for her.

You say this as though it has to be accepted fact and that this 'good' has some longevity.

It is like everything else on here simply opinion, but one based on direct observation. The 80's under Thatcher wasn't a diabolical time for my working class family, or our working class neighbours, my school friends (many of whom had parents who exercised the right to buy) or relatives.

And you were how old at this juncture? Some of us speak from experience

[bickster]

Oh and the fireworks were great

[peterms]

A vile, contemptible person.  The kind of thing you wave at children, to frighten them, if you're so inclined.

 

How can you count or value the wrongdoing she perpetrated?  Or rank each miserable sin against the next?

 

She enthusiastically supported a fascist dictator who had thousands of his countrymen abducted and tortured to death.  For that alone she should have been dragged before the court at the Hague and imprisoned.

 

She actively supported the apartheid regime in South Africa, and labelled Mandela a "terrorist".  Small wonder that her progeny turned out to be an arms dealer, and a racist.

 

She oversaw the "big bang" in the City, the bonfire of regulation, and so directly brought about the financial crash which we are still suffering.

 

She undermined productive industry at every turn, preferring the rentiers whose sham economy we now bale out, at vast cost to ourselves.  But since her husband's wealth (and therefore her own wealth, since she was no sort of feminist at all) was derived from rentier profits, she was more than comfortable with that.

 

She happened to be in office when north sea oil came good, and she squandered it on - what, exactly?  Covering the unemployment costs of her appalling economic policy, or lack of one.

 

She deliberately drove millions into unemployment, to drive down wages, and crush resistance to international, taxdodging capital.  The consequences of that dog us to this day.  We now have a low wage economy, call centres and shelf-stacking replacing engineering and manufacturing.

 

The evils of her reign would have taken place without her.  In that sense she was no more than an image that fronted the casual destruction of a nation, not the driving force (despite what her followers would have us believe).  Yet she did her work with such grim and ruthless efficiency that many people see her as the embodiment of the evil that her chosen system represents.

 

Actually, it's hard to disagree.  She took to this with the enthusiasm of the dim and sadistic torturer let loose with the red hot tongs, and millions bear the scars of her cruelty.  She was the face of what happened, not the engine.  But still, looking back over her evil life, it's hard to conclude anything other than that she should have died 70 years earlier.

 

 

[Awol]

 

 

Except she was good for the middle classes and many of the working class who expressed that by voting for her.

You say this as though it has to be accepted fact and that this 'good' has some longevity.

 

It is like everything else on here simply opinion, but one based on direct observation. The 80's under Thatcher wasn't a diabolical time for my working class family, or our working class neighbours, my school friends (many of whom had parents who exercised the right to buy) or relatives.

 

And you were how old at this juncture? Some of us speak from experience

From my earliest memories she was our PM until I was about 14. Old enough to have understood the world around me, watch the Falklands on the news, the miners strike, the fall of the Berlin Wall and then the USSR, the Poll tax riots, the joy of friends parents at buying their council houses and remember the horror stories told by all and sundry about the Unions and the 70's.  If I'd grown up somewhere else then I'd probably have a different view having had a different experience of her policies, but I didn't. Either way, we can disagree without you being so patronizing.

[Richard]

I think some of the comments about thatcher and her family probably say more about the people making them than thatcher and her family.

Whilst I'm not one to aim poor taste comments at any dead person or their family, I think your comment displays a massive amount of ignorance and/or naivety.

actually no, my comment displays a massive amount of decency. Edited April 9, 2013 by Richard

[CI]

Absolute word removed of the highest order

Ruined the country