U.S. Politics

[OutByEaster?]

7 minutes ago, blandy said:

Depends how you phrase that question.

"Do you believe that in a pandemic the President should be able to prevent people going to work, to deprive them of their healthcare and their livelihood?"

"Do you believe that in a pandemic the President should not be able to overrule the need to keep people safe, sacrificing lives for the sake of the bankers and stock market?"

You can get whatever answer you want.

I think also, and especially in America - if you have the money, you can get whatever question you like asked.

The current Trump campaign to re-open the US comes directly from his meeting with some of the worlds biggest fund managers, people who have been part of his policy making teams from day one - the people he actually represents. 

I think the American "rugged individualism" we talk about is something that has been developed and marketed to the American people over a very long period. It was a huge part of Reagan's rush to deregulate and privatise.

[blandy]

29 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

I think the American "rugged individualism" we talk about is something that has been developed and marketed to the American people over a very long period. It was a huge part of Reagan's rush to deregulate and privatise.

Do you think he essentially sold them what they wanted to buy, perhaps? I haven't been to the US for 14 years, so things may be completely different now, I dunno, though I've worked with Americans a lot more recently, and I'm only speaking anecdotally anyway, but I always felt they were way more kind of individualistic than us. I'm sure I've posted before about one guy I worked with called Louie, who is a highly intelligent, liberal minded, well read, well travelled type. In a well paid job and his wife helps the homeless all that kind of good stuff. One night in the bar a group of us were talking about healthcare and NHS v the American system and I thought he'd be for the Obama version and against the Reps stance. But no. He was livid with Obama, not just I don't agree, but livid. For all the genuine and many qualities he had of humour compassion, kindness generosity and so on, he (and the other US people round that bar table) were massively into the merit of the individual being the thing that should determine...(this was in 2014 or 15). Same with others and their going off into the woods for long weekends of sort of survival trips - hunting and camping out or staying in remote log cabins north of Milwaukee (2005). So this was all Pre Trump. I don't know which party any voted for, but all of them were qualified, educated, engineers in decent jobs, no unmentionables amongst them.

Rednecks in bars in the South in the 80s, they're a different matter. Vile racists - but again, definitely nowhere near the kind of "society exists and is valuable regardless of wealth or ethnicity or etc." outlook that most Brits have, however we vote.

[OutByEaster?]

Quote

Do you think he essentially sold them what they wanted to buy, perhaps?

It's the nation that established the idea of telling people what they want to buy then selling it to them.

I think they're sold the American dream - the social mobility that was at the heart of the initial immigration and the US's great period of growth. It no longer exists. I think since the early eighties it's been used to shape American thought and culture into something that allows money to control the population.

Your man in a bar there would have spent his formative years under Reagan I guess if this was 2014-15 - he's probably a good reflection of how power influences culture.

The pioneer spirit, the lone cowboy, all of that stuff - it presents valuable tropes that can be used to influence people - the way it's used in the US is incredibly powerful.

[blandy]

4 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

Your man in a bar there would have spent his formative years under Reagan I guess if this was 2014-15 - he's probably a good reflection of how power influences culture.

Louie, nah, he was late 50s 5 years ago - more likely Carter and Ford, tbh.

[blandy]

and thinking on power influencing culture in the US, at least, maybe that would explain all his God belief and good deeds with his wife.

[OutByEaster?]

Just now, blandy said:

and thinking on power influencing culture in the US, at least, maybe that would explain all his God belief and good deeds with his wife.

True enough - apologies to Louie, I'm not saying he's a bad fella!

It's strange the extent to which the places we grow up influence our thinking - not as individuals, that makes sense, but as collectives. 

 

[blandy]

I just looked in my photos. 28/9/2015 Here's the lovely man (and he is) himself

[OutByEaster?]

I mean, it's odd - if I grew up in a house where my dad believed in lizard aliens you could accept that I'd believe in lizard aliens - but you'd expect that once I became part of a nation of millions of people, there'd be a gradual movement towards a common sense of sorts, that the size of cultures would balance them and make them more alike - there'd be more of a global collective normal through our influence on each other.

It almost seems that the opposite happens - individually we're all much more attuned to each other, you and Louie (who looks a bit like Lampard Snr) can sit down and have a good sensible drink and chat - but it's the cultures, the collective thinking that actually makes us more different rather than more similar.

In the case of the US, I don't think that's accidental - I think there's some design to it - there probably is here too, but I guess it's invisible when you live in it.

 

[blandy]

6 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

I mean, it's odd - if I grew up in a house where my dad believed in lizard aliens you could accept that I'd believe in lizard aliens - but you'd expect that once I became part of a nation of millions of people, there'd be a gradual movement towards a common sense of sorts, that the size of cultures would balance them and make them more alike - there'd be more of a global collective normal through our influence on each other.

It almost seems that the opposite happens - individually we're all much more attuned to each other, you and Louie (who looks a bit like Lampard Snr) can sit down and have a good sensible drink and chat - but it's the cultures, the collective thinking that actually makes us more different rather than more similar.

In the case of the US, I don't think that's accidental - I think there's some design to it - there probably is here too, but I guess it's invisible when you live in it.

I get what you're saying. I wonder if religion might disprove what you suggest in the first para, but support your last argument's principle.

Like I said before with Louie, in most regards he seems like an "ideal" - genuinely funny, generous, intelligent, kind, gregarious, interested and interesting. If anything his religion and the healthcare thing made him more interesting, because they were at odds with what (as you say) UK (or at least my personal version of it) cultural norm might suggest he'd think on that, yet he was the opposite. But I'd say (it's only one case) we were far more similar than different - I might be flattering myself there, as he's one of the nicest people I've ever met.

So I don't really hold with the idea that the US "designs" to make them or us or our cultures different. And I don't have a problem with difference anyway. I think leader and politicians can and do influence some people and therefore some aspects of a nations culture, but equally sometimes in ways that are the opposite of what they intend. More of the US is anti Trump, and much more so, than previously, for example and they are more anti his traits and ideology.

[LondonLax]

We’re all biased and a product of our culture one way or another (how could we not be). The funny thing is we all think our outlook is the ‘right’ way and it’s those others who have no common sense and must be brainwashed. 

[chrisp65]

The religious angle is a comparatively new thing from around the mid 1970’s (apparently).

Yes, the Americans always had a slightly higher regard in general for their local pastor than we had for the good ol’ C of W. Possibly due to a slightly higher mix of catholic backgrounds. That’s speculation on my part. But back in the 70’s they were seen as increasingly a marginal irrelevant voting block. Started picking up in the wake of Nixon and the attempts at a resurgence in national pride under Ford. Part of the narrative that they had actually ‘won’ in Vietnam as they’d achieved their original goal. 

By the time Reagan came around, they were being recognised as an important demographic again. Possibly because people were so disillusioned with politics they needed a new role model.

Perhaps a couple of the U.S. contributors would care to add their thoughts?

[snowychap]

 

[bickster]

Honestly, your flabber will never have been more ghasted

 

[sne]

4 minutes ago, bickster said:

Honestly, your flabber will never have been more ghasted

 

This is where you start to question the merits of democracy and general elections. 

[LondonLax]

It will be a piss take.

“We drink natural light because it’s natural and light” 

[bickster]

Just now, LondonLax said:

It will be a piss take.

nah

[sharkyvilla]

Definitely taking the piss.  Decent effort as well.

[tonyh29]

45 minutes ago, bickster said:

Honestly, your flabber will never have been more ghasted

 

 

paging @chrisp65 , give that bridge a lick of paint  we’ve got ourselves an easy mark

[chrisp65]

I think she may be a little smarter than she appears.

[bickster]

18 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

I think she may be a little smarter than she appears.

Hmmm, I've met plenty like her. I once convinced a fella in Prescot Arizona, whose surname was England, that he should tell his wife (who complained he was always in the pub) that it was genetic because English people are always in the pub and his forebears obviously hailed from England originally. There's nothing wrong with you, its just part of your genetic make up. he toddled off home pleased as punch and he was defiitely going to tell his wife...

He was a lineman (for the county) as it happens, that was when I actually learned what a lineman was.

There's plenty of them out there, met plenty like her