Stevo985 Posted February 16 VT Supporter Share Posted February 16 Has anyone on this thread ever claimed that Pep has "never struggled or failed"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted February 16 Author Share Posted February 16 He definitely failed a couple of things as a player 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmygreaves Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 Guardiola is the very definition of a checkbook manager. This will always be associated with his career and legacy. As will accusations of doping be it financially or medically. Anyone claiming him to be one of the greatest ever must, by default, look the other way at the "advantages" he's been afforded. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 10 minutes ago, jimmygreaves said: Guardiola is the very definition of a checkbook manager. This will always be associated with his career and legacy. As will accusations of doping be it financially or medically. Anyone claiming him to be one of the greatest ever must, by default, look the other way at the "advantages" he's been afforded. My views are skewed somewhat because I've "only" been following football since the mid 90's and probably paying more attention to managers for maybe 20 years rather than much longer. So some of the highly regarded names of the past (Shankly, Ramsey et al) just aren't on my radar because I can't judge what they were doing versus what everyone else was doing. In terms of what I've seen (let's call it the "modern era") though, Guardiola absolutely has to be up there. I can't imagine there any many managers which would be held in that sort of regard which haven't had huge financial advantages - and of those who didn't, but had success (like Ranieri), I'd say that those achievements as one offs are far better than basically any manager has achieved... but there isn't a lasting legacy or utter domination. I suppose an example of a great manager having huge financial advantages but not having a massive legacy would be Mourinho. He had some remarkable achievements (Porto, Chelsea (particularly 04/05 league season IMO), Inter Milan) but hasn't been a complete success everywhere. He's still up there, for me, though as one of the great managers of the "modern era". The difference between that sort of success and then what Guardiola is doing is both the dominance and the impact of "that type" of football. Man City have won 50% (I think?) of all trophies available to them whilst Guardiola has been in charge. That's staggering. You can have financial advantage to get a level of success, but to continue it and dominate is a different beast entirely - let alone in England where there are several teams able to spend a lot of money. He's got a win ratio of over 72% at all of Barcelona, Bayern and Man City. Sure, money gets him better players - but managers just don't do that. Mourinho didn't manage 72% at any club he managed, let alone over 850 games at different clubs. There's also the style of play; there's a very "Guardiola" way of playing football. It's probably stemmed from the influences of 'Total Football' and Cruyff managing him at Barcelona, but his teams play in a very particular way; possession based, looking for a chance to break into a swift attack. The 08/09 Barcelona side is widely regarded as one of the best teams ever and was absolutely Guardiola's influence coming in. Of course, you can dismiss this from a belief that every side he's ever managed has been doped up into superhumans - but, personally, I don't buy that. I don't like Guardiola as a person, but his managerial record is utterly insane. He's absolutely up there with the greatest in the "modern era"; probably second of all behind only Ferguson IMO. I don't even know who gets put close to them. Maybe Ancelotti? Wenger? Sacchi? There definitely aren't many. (Maybe this needs moving to "The Manager Thread"!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 Doping in football Good article on doping in football mainly focused on Italian teams. I enjoyed this bit though. Quote More recently, Pep Guardiola, while playing for Brescia in Italy, failed two drug tests in late 2001, testing positive for the banned steroid nandrolone. He received a four-month ban, a seven-month suspended prison sentence and a €9,000 fine. Over six years, Guardiola used a defence of contamination, which wasn’t true, and then claimed he had a medical condition causing the anomalous result, which was initially not accepted until that decision was reversed on a technicality, a decision Italy’s anti-doping authorities disagreed with. Just speaks of his character. And then amazingly some dodgy dr was with him at Barcelona. Don't forget barcelona paying off refs. How many other great managers should have these question marks next to their achievements? 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 24 minutes ago, DCJonah said: Doping in football Good article on doping in football mainly focused on Italian teams. I enjoyed this bit though. Just speaks of his character. And then amazingly some dodgy dr was with him at Barcelona. Don't forget barcelona paying off refs. How many other great managers should have these question marks next to their achievements? I agree, it does speak of his character. But then… a] Surely the other ultra-competitive sides impacted at the time (Real Madrid in particular) queried this and/or got in on the act. b] If you’re of the opinion that doping happened, was it just at Barcelona or also Bayern/Man City? And, as a follow on, the same query again - why is no-one bringing this up or are they doing it themselves? Football is a horrible, greedy sport. I can’t see any way that one manager is at the top of the game running a doping exercise across multiple sides, winning a vast number of trophies that a load of blokes on VillaTalk know about, but the rest of the football world doesn’t regard or doesn’t act on in the same way. It makes no sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted February 16 Author Share Posted February 16 28 minutes ago, DCJonah said: Doping in football Good article on doping in football mainly focused on Italian teams. I enjoyed this bit though. Just speaks of his character. And then amazingly some dodgy dr was with him at Barcelona. Don't forget barcelona paying off refs. How many other great managers should have these question marks next to their achievements? Its interesting he has never managed or seemed interested in managing in Italy. This plus the lack of big chequebooks maybe a reason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 Just now, Zatman said: Its interesting he has never managed or seemed interested in managing in Italy. This plus the lack of big chequebooks maybe a reason Serie A was the big league on the decline during his managerial career. It seems to now be a place for end-of-career folk rather than those on their way up. Have there been any upcoming managers brought in to the Premier League/La Liga/Bundesliga from Serie A over the last decade? I’m sure there have - just don’t follow the latter two leagues anywhere near enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted February 16 Author Share Posted February 16 50 minutes ago, bobzy said: Serie A was the big league on the decline during his managerial career. It seems to now be a place for end-of-career folk rather than those on their way up. Have there been any upcoming managers brought in to the Premier League/La Liga/Bundesliga from Serie A over the last decade? I’m sure there have - just don’t follow the latter two leagues anywhere near enough. De Zerbi, Conte came to England after learning in Italy. Maresca is on his way to Premier League as well after his last manager gig was in Serie A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 24 minutes ago, Zatman said: De Zerbi, Conte came to England after learning in Italy. Maresca is on his way to Premier League as well after his last manager gig was in Serie A Conte not exactly an upcoming manager when he came to the league - De Zerbi a decent shout though. Maresca did 6 months in Italy before being sacked. He’s been a Man City dev coach and Guardiola’s assistant before getting the Leicester job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 (edited) 1 hour ago, bobzy said: I agree, it does speak of his character. But then… a] Surely the other ultra-competitive sides impacted at the time (Real Madrid in particular) queried this and/or got in on the act. b] If you’re of the opinion that doping happened, was it just at Barcelona or also Bayern/Man City? And, as a follow on, the same query again - why is no-one bringing this up or are they doing it themselves? Football is a horrible, greedy sport. I can’t see any way that one manager is at the top of the game running a doping exercise across multiple sides, winning a vast number of trophies that a load of blokes on VillaTalk know about, but the rest of the football world doesn’t regard or doesn’t act on in the same way. It makes no sense. Yeah I'd agree to some extent but I can't think of another manager considered an all time great that have this many dodgy associations linked around them. As a player then 2 out of 3 clubs managed. It's a lot for one man. Edited February 16 by DCJonah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted February 16 VT Supporter Share Posted February 16 Not that it’s an excuse for any doping that Pep has been involved in, but I personally think doping is absolutely rife in football 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted February 16 Author Share Posted February 16 1 minute ago, Stevo985 said: Not that it’s an excuse for any doping that Pep has been involved in, but I personally think doping is absolutely rife in football I do as well and thats a problem football is afraid to clean up. Other drugs are rife in the game too and are covered as "injuries" reported by the club 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wainy316 Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 Pep ain’t all that 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted February 18 Author Share Posted February 18 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Steve Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 (edited) More authoritarian sports washing Edited February 18 by The_Steve 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
It's Your Round Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 3 hours ago, Zatman said: I wonder who’s funding the £94m a year umbrella partnership. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 Found myself at the Etihad last night, for the first time in nearly 20 years (pretty sure the last time was back when Stuart Pearce was managing them). I know it's not a novel observation but it is a dead, dead place to watch football. Literally only started singing when they were 3-1 (with the bizarre chant, 'to the library, 3-1') and then only for a minute or two, then again after the fourth but for less time this time, then about 15% of them had left by 82 minutes. What, you don't even want to clap them off the pitch? Seem to have no songs for any individual, except 'super Jack Grealish'. Nothing for Foden or Rodri. Silent, boring, utterly dead. It's not just the ground, there was honestly way more atmosphere when they Joey Barton and Sun Jihai in midfield. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 36 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: Found myself at the Etihad last night, for the first time in nearly 20 years (pretty sure the last time was back when Stuart Pearce was managing them). I know it's not a novel observation but it is a dead, dead place to watch football. Literally only started singing when they were 3-1 (with the bizarre chant, 'to the library, 3-1') and then only for a minute or two, then again after the fourth but for less time this time, then about 15% of them had left by 82 minutes. What, you don't even want to clap them off the pitch? Seem to have no songs for any individual, except 'super Jack Grealish'. Nothing for Foden or Rodri. Silent, boring, utterly dead. It's not just the ground, there was honestly way more atmosphere when they Joey Barton and Sun Jihai in midfield. the post VAR cheer for our goal was louder than theirs the free kick from the luiz yellow card on grealish it was like a minutes silence broke out its a weird place, noticeable in the crowd how many tourists there are now, do they still have their hardcore section of home fans right next to the away fans rather than behind the other goal? i hated that too i also find their double advertising boards annoying as **** 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 2 minutes ago, villa4europe said: the post VAR cheer for our goal was louder than theirs This is literally true, yes. And in general, Villa fans made *far* more noise all night. I'm not making some biased point about how great Villa fans are here; I imagine that happens every week. And sometimes the away fans are louder at VP too - you get this experience sitting as I usually do in the Upper Doug - but the differential is completely different. While VP may not always be a cauldron of noise, there are at least a number of standards that get sung multiple times per game; they just don't even really seem to have chants at City. 5 minutes ago, villa4europe said: its a weird place, noticeable in the crowd how many tourists there are now Yes - I was there* with a 'soccer tour' of 75 Americans, young players and their families, and no surprise that's the ground where a tour company could just easily rustle up 75 tickets at fairly short notice because there must have been 5,000+ empty seats. But I bet the group I was with made more noise than the average home fan, they were absolutely scathing about how dead it was. *it's a long story, but quite boring 9 minutes ago, villa4europe said: do they still have their hardcore section of home fans right next to the away fans rather than behind the other goal? i hated that too I honestly couldn't tell, but the layout of the ground makes no sense regardless. Obviously it's a bowl, but one 'end' behind the goal has an additional tier compared to the other 'end', so why on earth do they put the away fans in the taller end? Wouldn't you naturally and obviously try to make that your noisiest part of the ground? It's a long time ago now, but I remember back when I was there 20 years ago there had been some effort to 'bring Maine Road with them' or whatever, and along one side they had a giant banner with 'the Kippax will never die' or some such and that bit made a lot of noise, but no sign of any of that now. You do wonder where those 30,000 fans they used to be taking to third division games in the nineties actually are now, presumably they're either too old or dead or can't afford to go to the games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts