DCJonah Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 2 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: Nobody is pushing it to one side. They're specifically incorporating it into their assessment. You're just refusing to do an assessment. It's impossible to discuss Pep's ability as a manager if you just dismiss anything he's done at Man City because of cheating I don't know how long it's been going on, but they did attempt to cover it up, and it has allowed them to dominate. Despite that, most people still acknowledge that Max is an excellent driver I don't see how you can assess him when they've benefitted so much from cheating. It's not just a little one off thing. Everything he's been able to do is on the back of that cheating. That dominates it for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted February 14 VT Supporter Share Posted February 14 (edited) 9 minutes ago, DCJonah said: I don't see how you can assess him when they've benefitted so much from cheating. It's not just a little one off thing. Everything he's been able to do is on the back of that cheating. That dominates it for me. Contrary to you, I don't see how you can dismiss everything he's done because of cheating. Put it this way, if Man City had operated within the rules, how successful would pep have been? My answer to that is very. He wouldn't have been successful as he has been I'm sure, but he would still have won a lot of trophies with Man City. He'd still be one of the best managers in the world at one of the richest clubs in the world in the best league in the world. I'd also argue how successful would City have been if everything had been the same but they'd had a different manager to Pep? Again my answer to that is not as successful. Yes they would have won stuff, but I don't think they'd have won as much as they've won with Pep, possibly by a distance. Like I said Mancini and Pellegrini were at Man City while they were financially doping, and neither had this level of success. That is how you try to assess his performance whilst not dismissing the cheating. You're just not bothering. Which is fine, it is what it is. Edited February 14 by Stevo985 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 1 minute ago, Stevo985 said: Contrary to you, I don't see how you can dismiss everything he's done because of cheating. Put it this way, if Man City had operated within the rules, how successful would pep have been? My answer to that is very. He wouldn't have been successful as he has been I'm sure, but he would still have won a lot of trophies with Man City. He'd still be one of the best managers in the world at one of the richest clubs in the world in the best league in the world. I'd also argue how successful would City have been if everything had been the same but they'd had a different manager to Pep? Again my answer to that is not as successful. Yes they would have won stuff, but I don't think they'd have won as much as they've won with Pep, possibly by a distance. Like I said Mancini and Pellegrini were at Man City while they were financially doping, and neither had this level of success. That is how you try to assess his performance whilst not dismissing the cheating. You're just not bothering. Which is fine, it is what it is. Well yes, I'm not bothering because cheating in sport is a big deal IMO. Is there anything worse in sports than cheating? I find it odd that people are such a fan they want to continue to find ways to say he did a great job and just put the cheating to one side. Like I said it's a bit cult like. The man can do no wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 (edited) 3 minutes ago, DCJonah said: Well yes, I'm not bothering because cheating in sport is a big deal IMO. Is there anything worse in sports than cheating? I find it odd that people are such a fan they want to continue to find ways to say he did a great job and just put the cheating to one side. Like I said it's a bit cult like. The man can do no wrong. I don't think anyone has said they're a fan, that the club cheating is put to one side nor that he can do no wrong. Pointless continuing this. Edited February 14 by bobzy 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 2 minutes ago, bobzy said: I don't think anyone has said they're a fan, that the club cheating is put to one side nor that he can do no wrong. Pointless continuing this. I'm not even sure why the statement "he's a great manager" makes me a fan I think Jose is a great manager, I also think he's an absolute word removed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlobalVillan Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 (edited) 58 minutes ago, DCJonah said: Fair enough. I'm not saying he's a shit manager by the way. He's just massively overrated and over hyped. So if he's City success is tainted, his bayern spell means nothing. We're talking about one excellent spell at a club where he had the greatest player of all time. He has his fans on here and you won't change their mind. Some people won't listen to criticism as they love watching him and his team too much. No matter what they've done to get there. It's really sad that they have any fans at all after all they've done but there we go. Edit: And yes, raving about how good he is and enjoying watching them play makes someone a fan in one way or another. @DCJonah Edited February 14 by GlobalVillan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 12 minutes ago, bobzy said: I don't think anyone has said they're a fan, that the club cheating is put to one side nor that he can do no wrong. Pointless continuing this. Maybe I've interpreted incorrectly then. For me, I'd assume that someone who spends time defending him from criticism and finding ways to argue in his favour, even though there's doping allegations and financial fraud involved, would have to be a fan of his. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 Just now, DCJonah said: Maybe I've interpreted incorrectly then. For me, I'd assume that someone who spends time defending him from criticism and finding ways to argue in his favour, even though there's doping allegations and financial fraud involved, would have to be a fan of his. You've absolutely interpreted incorrectly. In fact, I'd say you haven't even been bothered to read posts properly. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted February 14 VT Supporter Share Posted February 14 27 minutes ago, DCJonah said: Well yes, I'm not bothering because cheating in sport is a big deal IMO. Is there anything worse in sports than cheating? I find it odd that people are such a fan they want to continue to find ways to say he did a great job and just put the cheating to one side. Like I said it's a bit cult like. The man can do no wrong. Again; who is saying he's done no wrong? The only person putting things to one side is you. You're completely dismissing any ability he might have because cheating. Nobody is saying cheating isn't a big deal. nobody is saying it isn't the worst thing about sport. Nobody is saying Pep can do no wrong This is all entirely in your head Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted February 14 VT Supporter Share Posted February 14 16 minutes ago, GlobalVillan said: He has his fans on here and you won't change their mind. Some people won't listen to criticism as they love watching him and his team too much. No matter what they've done to get there. It's really sad that they have any fans at all after all they've done but there we go. Edit: And yes, raving about how good he is and enjoying watching them play makes someone a fan in one way or another. @DCJonah Everyone on hear is listening to criticism and dishing out their own criticism of him and Man City Are you even reading posts or are you just making up arguments with yourself? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ_Villain Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 6 hours ago, Stevo985 said: Still completely missing the point It’s not though is it… because Fergie literally proved that he can work miracles on zero budget… Guardiola has never done it… he’s been handed mega money everywhere he has gone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted February 14 VT Supporter Share Posted February 14 26 minutes ago, DJ_Villain said: It’s not though is it… Yes it is. You're replying to a point I wasn't making. Crack on if you like Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 42 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: Again; who is saying he's done no wrong? The only person putting things to one side is you. You're completely dismissing any ability he might have because cheating. Nobody is saying cheating isn't a big deal. nobody is saying it isn't the worst thing about sport. Nobody is saying Pep can do no wrong This is all entirely in your head No I'm not. I haven't said he's an awful manager. I'm dismissing what he's done at city because of what's built it. I haven't dismissed any ability he might have. You seem to be doing the thing you're accusing me of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 54 minutes ago, bobzy said: You've absolutely interpreted incorrectly. In fact, I'd say you haven't even been bothered to read posts properly. No I have thanks. Its pretty clear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 2 minutes ago, DCJonah said: No I'm not. I haven't said he's an awful manager. I'm dismissing what he's done at city because of what's built it. I haven't dismissed any ability he might have. You seem to be doing the thing you're accusing me of. So he's a great manager, yes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 4 minutes ago, bobzy said: So he's a great manager, yes? No, I don't think so. There's a huge space between shit and great. I've repeatedly said I think he's overrated and overhyped. I never said he was shit. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 5 minutes ago, DCJonah said: No, I don't think so. There's a huge space between shit and great. I've repeatedly said I think he's overrated and overhyped. I never said he was shit. Out of interest, how good do you think he is? Let's say... in comparison to current Premier League managers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 6 minutes ago, bobzy said: Out of interest, how good do you think he is? Let's say... in comparison to current Premier League managers. I think he's a very good manager. Clearly in the top section in current managers. But I'd caveat that with the fact he's always had every advantage given to him. I don't buy this greatest of all time and I think he's over hyped. I think his legacy is in tatters if City are found guilty. I don't think he's done anything in his career more impressive than other great managers. I think klopp with Liverpool is more impressive than anything pep has done. I think if arsenal won the league you could say the same about Arteta. I think he's also a shit of a man and find it interesting that so much controversy in regards to cheating seems to follow him round. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 Drug cheating as a player. Controversial drug doping doctor works at barcelona with him. Barcelona paying off refs during his time there. Man city found guilty by Uefa Man city investigated by the prem for 115 charges. Can anyone name another top class manager that's had this level of corruption and scandal follow them round? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted February 14 VT Supporter Share Posted February 14 (edited) 31 minutes ago, DCJonah said: No I'm not. I haven't said he's an awful manager. I'm dismissing what he's done at city because of what's built it. I haven't dismissed any ability he might have. You seem to be doing the thing you're accusing me of. You've spent several pages saying anything he's done at City is irrelevant because it was "built on cheating" Now you're assessing him and his time at City completely reasonably: 8 minutes ago, DCJonah said: I think he's a very good manager. Clearly in the top section in current managers. But I'd caveat that with the fact he's always had every advantage given to him. I don't buy this greatest of all time and I think he's over hyped. I don't think anyone will have a particular issue with the above. I certainly don't. it's a perfectly valid point of view. Edited February 14 by Stevo985 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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