Things you often Wonder

[Mandy Lifeboats]

2 minutes ago, fightoffyour said:

What right do the police have to take someone’s details?

They asked for mine because a bar/club asked me to leave / wouldn’t let me in (fair enough), but what have the police got to do with it?

i told them I’m Joris Bohnson and go solve some crimes instead of talking to someone who just wants a juicy IPA.

This is the simplistic answer……..

If you are suspected of a crime the Police can arrest you and hold you indefinitely until they can identify you.  The onus is upon you to identify yourself.  It’s a Section of The Police & Criminal Evidence Act. (PACE).  I forget which. 
 

The Police can ask for your identity.  Everyone can.  You are under no obligation to provide it.  Although if arrested you are shooting yourself in the foot by not giving it.  It just allows them to detain you without charge for longer. 
 

If the Police believe a crime has been committed they can take your details if they feel you are a person with relevant information. In fact they are obligated to ask as part of investigation law called Criminal Procedures @ Investigation Act (CPIA).  
 

But here’s where it’s not simple……..

Imagine a window has been smashed and 2 people are standing next to the broken window.  One refuses to identify himself or answer any questions. The other identifies himself and explains that he was simply walking by and stopped to see what had happened.   The first person is more likely to be arrested.  The second person has identified himself and can be contacted later if necessary.  You can argue the legal and moral aspects of that forever. I will not be joining in.  

 

[chrisp65]

Fightoffyour reads the responses on his phone, can’t quite remember exactly how last night panned out in the end and steps outside…

 

[Amsterdam_Neil_D]

Imagine the birds that Vardy and Rooney would have ended up marrying if they weren't rich and famous footballers if these 2 are what they bagged being millionaires. 

 

[foreveryoung]

Just now, fightoffyour said:

What right do the police have to take someone’s details?

They asked for mine because a bar/club asked me to leave / wouldn’t let me in (fair enough), but what have the police got to do with it?

i told them I’m Joris Bohnson and go solve some crimes instead of talking to someone who just wants a juicy IPA.

No disrespect to you mate, but I don't like this, neither does one of my best pals who's a 25 year police officer, an one of us, not a arrogant copper.

If you are innocent, have nothing on you and are not a criminal, what is the reason you would not give your name, or even be searched appropriately. It would be a better place if they did not ban stop and search because of some wannabe gangsters giving it attitude and don't like it.

[fightoffyour]

3 minutes ago, foreveryoung said:

No disrespect to you mate, but I don't like this, neither does one of my best pals who's a 25 year police officer, an one of us, not a arrogant copper.

If you are innocent, have nothing on you and are not a criminal, what is the reason you would not give your name, or even be searched appropriately. It would be a better place if they did not ban stop and search because of some wannabe gangsters giving it attitude and don't like it.

Fine your mate is a copper, but you haven’t answered the question. 

[fightoffyour]

1 hour ago, Mandy Lifeboats said:

This is the simplistic answer……..

If you are suspected of a crime the Police can arrest you and hold you indefinitely until they can identify you.  The onus is upon you to identify yourself.  It’s a Section of The Police & Criminal Evidence Act. (PACE).  I forget which. 
 

The Police can ask for your identity.  Everyone can.  You are under no obligation to provide it.  Although if arrested you are shooting yourself in the foot by not giving it.  It just allows them to detain you without charge for longer. 
 

If the Police believe a crime has been committed they can take your details if they feel you are a person with relevant information. In fact they are obligated to ask as part of investigation law called Criminal Procedures @ Investigation Act (CPIA).  
 

But here’s where it’s not simple……..

Imagine a window has been smashed and 2 people are standing next to the broken window.  One refuses to identify himself or answer any questions. The other identifies himself and explains that he was simply walking by and stopped to see what had happened.   The first person is more likely to be arrested.  The second person has identified himself and can be contacted later if necessary.  You can argue the legal and moral aspects of that forever. I will not be joining in.  

 

No windows were smashed 

thanks for all the info folks 

[chrisp65]

Nobody should fear being asked for their papers if they’ve done nothing wrong.

 

[foreveryoung]

Just now, fightoffyour said:

Fine your mate is a copper, but you haven’t answered the question. 

They have the right, cause they want trouble of the streets and you may be wanted, have a criminal record or a history of violence. So knowing who you are helps them out on how to deal with you, they have a list of wanted drummed into them too, so may recognise your name.

It's basic profiling too, if you are from a known area you maybe (not saying you will be) more likely to kick off.

[fightoffyour]

12 minutes ago, foreveryoung said:

They have the right, cause they want trouble of the streets and you may be wanted, have a criminal record or a history of violence. So knowing who you are helps them out on how to deal with you, they have a list of wanted drummed into them too, so may recognise your name.

It's basic profiling too, if you are from a known area you maybe (not saying you will be) more likely to kick off.

I don’t want trouble I just want a big ducking juicy IPA

[rjw63]

17 minutes ago, fightoffyour said:

I don’t want trouble I just want a big ducking juicy IPA

They would have let you in bar for the fact you were naked. 

Edited May 14, 2022 by rjw63
Ridiculous typo thanks to Alf Garnett word autocorrect

[foreveryoung]

Just now, fightoffyour said:

I don’t want trouble I just want a big ducking juicy IPA

They don't know that until they have a chat. But I can tell from talking to you now, you just wanted your beer, no trouble guv. 

[Davkaus]

3 hours ago, Rds1983 said:

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/scotland/law-and-courts/legal-system-s/police-s/police-powers-to-stop-and-search-enter-private-property-and-seize-goods-s/#:~:text=If asked to do so,could be arrested and charged.

"If asked to do so, you must give your name, address, date and place of birth and nationality to the officer. You may also be asked for an explanation of your behaviour. If you give false information or refuse to answer, you are committing an offence for which you could be arrested and charged."

They have the right to make you identify yourself but have less limited rights about searching you and your possessions. However with Patel in charge I expect police rights will only go one way. 

You've missed the very important context that this only applies if they suspect you of committing an offence and they specify what they suspect you of

[Rds1983]

3 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

You've missed the very important context that this only applies if they suspect you of committing an offence and they specify what they suspect you of

I'll let you argue that one with them and Patel. I don't agree with the police state we're becoming but showing my driving licence is an easy de-escalation and doesn't seem like the hill to die on. I've been stopped before and missed trains because of it but easier to just deal with the aggro and put in a complaint later. 

[Mandy Lifeboats]

6 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

You've missed the very important context that this only applies if they suspect you of committing an offence and they specify what they suspect you of

Not quite. There are many other instances when it applies. Just a few examples that I can remember of the top of my head.  

You are likely to cause serious harm to yourself or others. 

You are about to commit a crime. 

You are undertaking an act which is legal but is connected to terrorism.  

 

[mjmooney]

14 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

You've missed the very important context that this only applies if they suspect you of committing an offence and they specify what they suspect you of

 

[chrisp65]

I’ve had plenty of interactions with the police when I was younger.

As much as they have a very difficult job to do, it’s also true that either very few of them have any understanding of the law, or, they know the law but decide the power trip is too sweet to resist. Give them an inch and they’ll take a mile.

[Mandy Lifeboats]

4 minutes ago, Rds1983 said:

I'll let you argue that one with them and Patel. I don't agree with the police state we're becoming but showing my driving licence is an easy de-escalation and doesn't seem like the hill to die on. I've been stopped before and missed trains because of it but easier to just deal with the aggro and put in a complaint later. 

Agreed.

No-one has ever avoided arrest by withholding their name.

Many people have avoided arrest by giving their name.  

But in my opinion - don't answer any other questions until you have had time to think, spoken to the duty solicitor and generally calmed down.  Many people talk themselves into a charge in the heat of the moment.  

For example

"Why do you think I have stopped you?" should make you reply;

"I would like you to tell me please officer." 

If you say something like "Was I speeding" you have just shown that you are unaware of your speed and therefore were driving without due care or attention.  

 

[Rds1983]

3 minutes ago, Mandy Lifeboats said:

Agreed.

No-one has ever avoided arrest by withholding their name.

Many people have avoided arrest by giving their name.  

But in my opinion - don't answer any other questions until you have had time to think, spoken to the duty solicitor and generally calmed down.  Many people talk themselves into a charge in the heat of the moment.  

For example

"Why do you think I have stopped you?" should make you reply;

"I would like you to tell me please officer." 

If you say something like "Was I speeding" you have just shown that you are unaware of your speed and therefore were driving without due care or attention.  

 

Completely agree. By polite and helpful where required but then demand to speak to a lawyer before going further. Video evidence of interactions is key. Also asking "is that an order or request and will I be arrested if I refuse?" is an important question. 

[Mandy Lifeboats]

4 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

I’ve had plenty of interactions with the police when I was younger.

As much as they have a very difficult job to do, it’s also true that either very few of them have any understanding of the law, or, they know the law but decide the power trip is too sweet to resist. Give them an inch and they’ll take a mile.

Two things have really sharpened up the Police. 

1. The Internet makes it easy to know your rights. But make sure its a reliable source.  Anyone quoting common law, freeman of the land or law from 1476 in an idiot. 

2. Video recordings on phones.  If you have contact with the Police, record the interaction and inform the officer you are doing so.  As a general rule you can do this up to the point you are arrested and put in handcuffs.  

[chrisp65]

2 minutes ago, Mandy Lifeboats said:

Two things have really sharpened up the Police. 

1. The Internet makes it easy to know your rights. But make sure its a reliable source.  Anyone quoting common law, freeman of the land or law from 1476 in an idiot. 

2. Video recordings on phones.  If you have contact with the Police, record the interaction and inform the officer you are doing so.  As a general rule you can do this up to the point you are arrested and put in handcuffs.  

Agreed.

My personal experience pre dates camera phones. But I learnt enough through personal experience to know never ever to instantly believe the police version of events. If my kids ended up in trouble, I would not presume the police record is accurate.

I don’t think you need to know too much law, you just need to stay respectful and non-sweary and as said above don’t get manoeuvred in to verbal corners.

I suspect a lot of police understandably get jaded and disillusioned by having to deal with arseholes and never quite actually being able to stop genuine known criminals. But the result of that, they presume everyone they meet will be an arsehole and is the low hanging fruit of an arrest they have been looking for.

It must be close to impossible for them. But that doesn’t mean you need to be compliant with people that over step their powers as a matter of either habit or poor training.