The Arab Spring and "the War on Terror"

[AshVilla]

How long before a US or Russian plane is shot down by accident by either side

It's crowded airspace at the minute...

I feel a Will Ferrell that escalated quickly image coming along

Edited October 3, 2015 by AshVilla

[Xann]

The Russians want to be relevant. The Taliban don't want to be like us. IS want something they read about in a fairy tale.

[OutByEaster?]

So, are we using IS as an excuse to bomb people that are loyal to Assad in an effort to remove him, whilst the Russians are using IS as an excuse to bomb people that are resisting Assad in an effort to support him - whilst both sides point at the other and say "They need to be more careful about the way they're bombing IS"?

That would make some sense, because at least it provides some sort of reasoning as to why we've allowed IS to exist for so long - I've always wondered where their usefulness is.

 

[chrisp65]

The Russians want to be in charge, to stop all the others that relentlessly invade them. They feel it's their turn. They are currently conditioned to believe the best leaders are homo erotic drunken bullies.

The americans give a great deal of credence to the religious right which believes we are in 'end days'. They also pay a lot of respect to Israel that believes the only good arab is a dead arab that leaves behind some land and some olive trees for their far right settlers.

France haven't got a clue but feel they should join in to warrant their place at the grown ups table.

ISIS is also an 'end days' death cult.

Saudi and the others are a bit confused, but like the idea of lots of money fuelling their kids lifestyle in London and New York. If it goes truly rotten, they can simply Saigon chopper outta there.

The UK want to be involved but need to borrow some kit to be able to play. But not to worry tens upon tens upon tens of billions on trident will help with this.

Most Syrians probably want their kids to have a fair chance for a peaceful and prosperous life.

But we're in now, so probably best to just keep bombing stuff and see how it pans out. If we could just oust Saddam and find Osama I'm confident we could draw a line under all this.

[Awol]

@Tayls

Between Xann and Chrisp65 they've pretty much nailed it, imho.

The thing that is really gripping me atm is the almost total absence of news in the msm about Yemen. An entire country is being bombed, blasted and starved back to the stone age (an admittedly short journey) by Saudi Arabia in a campaign they can't win, to achieve objectives that don't make sense and defeat an enemy (the Iranian bogey man on the Arabian Peninsula) that doesn't exist.

A recent assessment by one of the major NGO's concluded that Yemen after 5 months looks like Syria after 5 years. There is no end in sight and the population are a few short months from suffering death by starvation on a massive scale - i.e. to rival if not exceed Syria. The media aren't talking about it, the UK and US are enabling it and it is a crime of such magnitude that the world will soon ask, "how did we ignore it?"

If Yemen had the proximity to safe countries that Syria enjoys then the exodus of refugees would far exceed that currently crossing from Turkey to Greece.  The situation is a sickening stain on UK foreign policy and I would dearly love Cameron and the FCO to be taken to task for it, but there seems to be a blanket of voluntary self-censorship thrown over the whole thing that is simply unconscionable.  It's enough to test the self-belief of anyone in the West that we actually are, "the good guys". If Corbyn wants to do something useful during his short stay as leader he should get his teeth into this issue.  

[blandy]

If Yemen had the proximity to safe countries that Syria enjoys then the exodus of refugees would far exceed that currently crossing from Turkey to Greece.  The situation is a sickening stain on UK foreign policy and I would dearly love Cameron and the FCO to be taken to task for it, but there seems to be a blanket of voluntary self-censorship thrown over the whole thing that is simply unconscionable.  It's enough to test the self-belief of anyone in the West that we actually are, "the good guys". If Corbyn wants to do something useful during his short stay as leader he should get his teeth into this issue.  

Out of curiosity, why is Yemen anything to do with the UK and its foreign policy? I get that what's going on there is unconscionable and appalling. I get that the news media just don't cover it. But why is it up to the UK to sort it out?

Every nation, pretty much will think "we're the good guys" - I mean no one ever says " we're the baddies in this one, folks" do they? The reality is that there aren't any good guys. None. The best seems to be the ones who by and large don't get involved in other countries issues and wars and strife, apart from in a humanitarian way.

The whole notion that one country, or countries can "sort out" the complex strands of another country, on another continent - somewhere completely foreign in all senses, is pretty much ludicrous. There are very few exceptions. Yes maybe a relatively small country with a rogue warlord can maybe be stabilised a bit (sierra leone or such like), but that's rare and there are many more examples of just making things worse.

We are where we are, and there's nothing we can do to help resolve the Yemen problems, is there?. We could ask the Saudis to stop being murderous, but anything more than that and we're going to be like the Blazing Saddles film where the man holds the gun to his own head and says "move and I'll shoot" (paraphrased for decency).

Other than democracy and diplomacy, what can we do?

 

[Awol]

If Yemen had the proximity to safe countries that Syria enjoys then the exodus of refugees would far exceed that currently crossing from Turkey to Greece.  The situation is a sickening stain on UK foreign policy and I would dearly love Cameron and the FCO to be taken to task for it, but there seems to be a blanket of voluntary self-censorship thrown over the whole thing that is simply unconscionable.  It's enough to test the self-belief of anyone in the West that we actually are, "the good guys". If Corbyn wants to do something useful during his short stay as leader he should get his teeth into this issue.  

Out of curiosity, why is Yemen anything to do with the UK and its foreign policy? I get that what's going on there is unconscionable and appalling. I get that the news media just don't cover it. But why is it up to the UK to sort it out?

..........

Other than democracy and diplomacy, what can we do?

Well Pete, we can do three things for starters: first, we can stop giving them diplomatic support and pretending that Saudi are acting in self defence against a non-existent terrorist threat.

Secondly we can stop selling them the ordnance that the RSAF is delivering from their shiny Typhoons to bomb weddings, Oxfam warehouses, critical national infrastructure, residential districts, market places etc etc.  If we did that their ability to maintain their revolting and murderous assault would dry up very quickly. Maybe the US would back fill the gaps but at least the UK would not be actively contributing to this illegal action.  

Thirdly we can withdraw the military personnel we have in place assisting them to enforce a blockade of Yemen which, far from stopping the importation of weapons (which are still being smuggled in on small boats every single night) is being used by the Saudis to blockade fuel and food. The lack of fuel means the diesel pumps required to operate pumps on deep wells can't be used.  Currently 80%+ of the population has no access to potable water, this is a deliberate and malicious policy. Hospitals are closing or closed because they have no fuel for generators or medicine for patients.  Yemen imports 90% of its food, more than 85%+ of the population is now on the brink in terms of food security. This is all deliberate and calculated.  

If a country other than Saudi were doing this to a civilian population it would be (rightly) labelled a rouge state and be looking down the barrel of an international response. Instead UK Gov is sucking up to them like ten men and the cash registers in BAe et al are spinning hot as they rush to get more bombs out of the door. I'm normally quite pragmatic about these things, but having worked with many tribes in Yemen since the 2011 revolution and seen how close they came to genuinely viable future, it appalls me that my government is complicit in the quashing of democracy, the persecution of an entire people and the wholesale destruction of a country. All for a few million quid from some immoral oily psychopaths hyped up on militaristic, religious nationalism.  It's disgraceful.     

 

EDIT: it should of course read 'rogue' state, not 'rouge' state, which is somewhere Jeremy Corbyn might like to live.

       

 

Edited October 3, 2015 by Awol

[snowychap]

Well Pete, we can do three things for starters: first, we can stop giving them diplomatic support and pretending that Saudi are acting in self defence against a non-existent terrorist threat.

Secondly we can stop selling them the ordnance that the RSAF is delivering from their shiny Typhoons to bomb weddings, Oxfam warehouses, critical national infrastructure, residential districts, market places etc etc.  If we did that their ability to maintain their revolting and murderous assault would dry up very quickly. Maybe the US would back fill the gaps but at least the UK would not be actively contributing to this illegal action.  

Thirdly we can withdraw the military personnel we have in place assisting them to enforce a blockade of Yemen which, far from stopping the importation of weapons (which are still being smuggled in on small boats every single night) is being used by the Saudis to blockade fuel and food. The lack of fuel means the diesel pumps required to operate pumps on deep wells can't be used.  Currently 80%+ of the population has no access to potable water, this is a deliberate and malicious policy. Hospitals are closing or closed because they have no fuel for generators or medicine for patients.  Yemen imports 90% of its food, more than 85%+ of the population is now on the brink in terms of food security. This is all deliberate and calculated.  

If a country other than Saudi were doing this to a civilian population it would be (rightly) labelled a rouge state and be looking down the barrel of an international response. Instead UK Gov is sucking up to them like ten men and the cash registers in BAe et al are spinning hot as they rush to get more bombs out of the door. I'm normally quite pragmatic about these things, but having worked with many tribes in Yemen since the 2011 revolution and seen how close they came to genuinely viable future, it appalls me that my government is complicit in the quashing of democracy, the persecution of an entire people and the wholesale destruction of a country. All for a few million quid from some immoral oily psychopaths hyped up on militaristic, religious nationalism.  It's disgraceful.     

Well said - deserves much more than a simple like.

[snowychap]

 

EDIT: it should of course read 'rogue' state, not 'rouge' state...

That ought to make you blush.

[islingtonclaret]

Thing is awol, it's all skewed in the media in the UK, even amongst the left-wing papers. Madness. I think the simple fact that Yemen is undergoing a Shia rebellion who are tied to one of the big baddies, Iran, and are being bombed by our very good friends the Saudi Arabians (I wonder what the investment levels are like in media organisations across the UK....in fact, the EU?) so it's best not to upset our mates. You can tell they're our mates: our tosspots of leaders decided to ensure they have a place on the UN Human Rights Commission. A country that are about to chop off a 17 year boy's head and crucify it because he was in a pro-democracy protest.

We've really got into bed with some of the most messed up human beings on the planet with Saudi Arabia, and I think the general public isn't aware just how evil they are. ISIS comes from the them!! Iran should be our sodding allies.

[Xann]

Syria conflict: Turkish jets intercept Russian plane

BBC

 

[Ikantcpell]

Keep reading that Russia will send 150.000 troops to syria to crush Isis, could get very messy if that is true.

[chrisp65]

as long as they don't take shelter in internationally recognised hospitals they'll be fine

[tonyh29]

Well Pete, we can do three things for starters: first, we can stop giving them diplomatic support and pretending that Saudi are acting in self defence against a non-existent terrorist threat.

Secondly we can stop selling them the ordnance that the RSAF is delivering from their shiny Typhoons to bomb weddings, Oxfam warehouses, critical national infrastructure, residential districts, market places etc etc.  If we did that their ability to maintain their revolting and murderous assault would dry up very quickly. Maybe the US would back fill the gaps but at least the UK would not be actively contributing to this illegal action.  

Thirdly we can withdraw the military personnel we have in place assisting them to enforce a blockade of Yemen which, far from stopping the importation of weapons (which are still being smuggled in on small boats every single night) is being used by the Saudis to blockade fuel and food. The lack of fuel means the diesel pumps required to operate pumps on deep wells can't be used.  Currently 80%+ of the population has no access to potable water, this is a deliberate and malicious policy. Hospitals are closing or closed because they have no fuel for generators or medicine for patients.  Yemen imports 90% of its food, more than 85%+ of the population is now on the brink in terms of food security. This is all deliberate and calculated.  

If a country other than Saudi were doing this to a civilian population it would be (rightly) labelled a rouge state and be looking down the barrel of an international response. Instead UK Gov is sucking up to them like ten men and the cash registers in BAe et al are spinning hot as they rush to get more bombs out of the door. I'm normally quite pragmatic about these things, but having worked with many tribes in Yemen since the 2011 revolution and seen how close they came to genuinely viable future, it appalls me that my government is complicit in the quashing of democracy, the persecution of an entire people and the wholesale destruction of a country. All for a few million quid from some immoral oily psychopaths hyped up on militaristic, religious nationalism.  It's disgraceful.     

Well said - deserves much more than a simple like.

I gave it a like from a non simple person to add to yours so fear not

[snowychap]

Well said - deserves much more than a simple like.

I gave it a like from a non simple person to add to yours so fear not

Grammar/reading comprehension fail but to play along: which one?

Edited October 5, 2015 by snowychap

[TrentVilla]

Well Pete, we can do three things for starters: first, we can stop giving them diplomatic support and pretending that Saudi are acting in self defence against a non-existent terrorist threat.

Secondly we can stop selling them the ordnance that the RSAF is delivering from their shiny Typhoons to bomb weddings, Oxfam warehouses, critical national infrastructure, residential districts, market places etc etc.  If we did that their ability to maintain their revolting and murderous assault would dry up very quickly. Maybe the US would back fill the gaps but at least the UK would not be actively contributing to this illegal action.  

Thirdly we can withdraw the military personnel we have in place assisting them to enforce a blockade of Yemen which, far from stopping the importation of weapons (which are still being smuggled in on small boats every single night) is being used by the Saudis to blockade fuel and food. The lack of fuel means the diesel pumps required to operate pumps on deep wells can't be used.  Currently 80%+ of the population has no access to potable water, this is a deliberate and malicious policy. Hospitals are closing or closed because they have no fuel for generators or medicine for patients.  Yemen imports 90% of its food, more than 85%+ of the population is now on the brink in terms of food security. This is all deliberate and calculated.  

If a country other than Saudi were doing this to a civilian population it would be (rightly) labelled a rouge state and be looking down the barrel of an international response. Instead UK Gov is sucking up to them like ten men and the cash registers in BAe et al are spinning hot as they rush to get more bombs out of the door. I'm normally quite pragmatic about these things, but having worked with many tribes in Yemen since the 2011 revolution and seen how close they came to genuinely viable future, it appalls me that my government is complicit in the quashing of democracy, the persecution of an entire people and the wholesale destruction of a country. All for a few million quid from some immoral oily psychopaths hyped up on militaristic, religious nationalism.  It's disgraceful.     

Well said - deserves much more than a simple like.

I gave it a like from a non simple person to add to yours so fear not

You shouldn't be using other peoples logins.

[TrentVilla]

 

Well ISIS wanted to go back to the dark ages and it seems like the Russian's are intent on giving them a helping hand.

Seems like they are bombing the absolute shite out of them.

[CrackpotForeigner]

 

Well ISIS wanted to go back to the dark ages.

"An admittedly short journey" as per Awol on the previous page

[AVFC_Hitz]

Nope.

 

Edited October 6, 2015 by AVFC_Hitz

[Awol]

Nope.

How are things on the street in Turkey at the moment? Seems the PKK and the security forces are really getting stuck into each other. Do you have any Kurdish mates with a view on where this is going?