The Arab Spring and "the War on Terror"

[TrentVilla]

What 'rumour'?

http://yournewswire.com/declassified-documents-obama-ordered-cia-to-train-isis/

The U.S. intelligence documents not only confirms suspicions that the United States and some of its coalition allies had actually facilitated the rise of the ISIS in Syria – as a counterweight to the Syrian government of President Bashar al-Assad- but also that ISIS members were initially trained by members and contractors of the Central Intelligence Agency at facilities in Jordan in 2012.

Plenty more on the net on it, this was just the first link I found.

[foreveryoung]

What 'rumour'?

Maybe more conpiricy then. Its all over the interweb.

Much like Al Qaeda, the Islamic State (ISIS) is made-in-the-USA, an instrument of terror designed to divide and conquer the oil-rich Middle East and to counter Iran’s growing influence in the region

[snowychap]

Sounds like a mish mash of (some real) ingredients that bakes a cake of bollocks.

[snowychap]

What 'rumour'?

 

http://yournewswire.com/declassified-documents-obama-ordered-cia-to-train-isis/

 

The U.S. intelligence documents not only confirms suspicions that the United States and some of its coalition allies had actually facilitated the rise of the ISIS in Syria – as a counterweight to the Syrian government of President Bashar al-Assad- but also that ISIS members were initially trained by members and contractors of the Central Intelligence Agency at facilities in Jordan in 2012.

Plenty more on the net on it, this was just the first link I found.

Blimey.

I feel like I've just been chopped down from Cynic to Skeptic!

[Chindie]

What 'rumour'?

Maybe more conpiricy then. Its all over the interweb.

Much like Al Qaeda, the Islamic State (ISIS) is made-in-the-USA, an instrument of terror designed to divide and conquer the oil-rich Middle East and to counter Iran’s growing influence in the region

What 'rumour'?

Maybe more conpiricy then. Its all over the interweb.

Much like Al Qaeda, the Islamic State (ISIS) is made-in-the-USA, an instrument of terror designed to divide and conquer the oil-rich Middle East and to counter Iran’s growing influence in the region

Rubbish.

Al Qaeda was formed after US involvement in the Soviet Afghan war. Even the **** name  gives a hint towards that.

If figures in ISIS were given training in their early days by the US, their position today is not what the US would want. Or anyone besides perhaps the Saudis and co would want. The US doesn't really care about Iran being a power in the region. They are happy with Iran being strong ifof it keeps the region reasonably stable and let's them do business with them. Iran previously was hated because it was a wildcard that threw that stability out, increasingly that's seemingly being overcome. ISIS adds in a whole new crazy wildcard and endends up causing everyone grief except the few nations in the region that want to have miniature clone states tip the balance.

[snowychap]

That there James O'Brien - brilliant.

 

Tory clearing in the woods from Salop was Tory clearing in the woods.

 

Edited September 11, 2015 by snowychap

[Awol]

Is the rumour that Isis were actually trained and set up by the CIA true. Obviously they have got too big for there boots now, or is this what the Americans want. Awol??

Is the rumour that Isis were actually trained and set up by the CIA true. Obviously they have got too big for there boots now, or is this what the Americans want. Awol

Straight answer is no, will explain background below in case you're interested and will try to be brief as possible.

Afghanistan, Soviets just left. Bin Laden and Zawahiri (founder of Eguptian Islamic Jihad) join forces and create Al Qaeda. Guy called Zarqawi sets up separate Jihadi group in Eastern city of Herat. From the start they had different views of how to achieve the same goal - formation of the Caliphate - and Zarqawi doesn't really trust Bin Laden.

9/11, Al Qaeda get a shoeing in Afghan and retreat to Pakistan, Zarqawi takes sanctuary in Iran. Becomes obvious Iraq will be attacked next so he leaves Iran in 2002 and slips into Iraq where he begins to prepare. Still unconnected to Bin Laden.

2004 Iraq insurgency is going off, Zarqawi a major player, Al Qaeda impressed with his work. Ask him to take their name and operate as franchise operation, AQ Iraq (AQI), he agrees. AQI's MO is brutally sectarian, wants to turn Shia against Sunni so he can be defender of the faith(ful). Brutal against any Sunni who oppose him. This is root of Islamic State ideology. 

Zarqawi gets killed in 2006, by 2009 US/UK special forces have reduced AQI to less than 50 members - from 1000's. 

Two key events follow, Syrian uprising and election of Maliki in Baghdad. Maliki is Shia, deeply sectarian, breaks all promises to Iraq Sunni community, they get more and more pusses off. Syria provides an ungoverned space to rebuild AQI rebranded as Islamic State of Iraq (ISI) to rebuild and recruit. ISI slowly gobbles up different newly formed Jihadi groups in Syria, rebrands again as Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS) and starts fighting Jabat al Nusra (JaN) the official AQ affiliate in Syria. 

ISIS manipulates Sunni discontent in Iraq and becomes tip of the spear for a General Sunni uprising in Iraq. IS bursts back into Northern Iraq and takes 1/3 of the country. Rebrands again as the Islamic State occupying 1/3 of Iraq more than 1/3 of Syria and starts operating as a new country with fluid borders. That's where we are today.

IS is in direct competition with AQ as leaders of Jihadism, various affiliates of IS start springing up around the world, Boko Haram swears allegiance, building a strong presence in Yemen, operating in Sinai and taking over in Libya. 

IS was born in Iraq, is Iraqi led and aims to establish a huge Caliphate from China to the Atlantic coasts of Africa and Spain. This is not a bunch of goat molesting hillbillies and they need to be stopped.

IS was not trained or created by the US.

 

 

 

[TrentVilla]

I'm slightly disturbed, I find myself in agreement with comments attributed to Putin in relation to ISIS. 

 

[Awol]

I'm slightly disturbed, I find myself in agreement with comments attributed to Putin in relation to ISIS. 

What comments were they and are they recent? 

[TrentVilla]

 

Here they are mate, I believe they were made only yesterday. I don't agree with supporting Assad but then at the same time he is probably the lesser evil.  

 

"Extremists from many countries of the world, including, unfortunately, European counties, Russia and the  Commonwealth of Independent States (CIS) undertake ideological and military training in the ranks of Islamic State [IS, formerly known as ISIS/ISIL]," said Putin, speaking at the Collective Security Treaty Organization (CSTO) summit in Tajikistan's capital, Dushanbe. "And certainly we are worried that they could possibly return."

Putin said it’s necessary for geopolitical ambitions to be set aside in the fight against IS terrorists.

"Simple common sense, responsibility for global and regional safety require uniting efforts of the international community [to fight] such a threat. It is necessary to set aside geopolitical ambitions, drop so-called double standards, the policy of direct or indirect use of separate terrorist groups for achieving own goals, including removing the governments and regimes." 

Russia is supporting the Syrian government in its fight against terrorism and will continue its support, Putin said.

"We give technical-military support to Damascus and will continue doing it," he said. "And we call on other countries to join us in this."

"Now we have to unite the efforts of the Syrian government and the Kurdish self-defense forces and the so-called moderate opposition, and other countries in the [Middle East] region to fight the threat to Syria’s statehood and terrorism."

 

Russia, as you know, has proposed to form a wide coalition to fight extremists without any delay. It [the coalition] should unite everyone who is ready and is already contributing to tackling terrorism.”

The activities of the IS jihadist group go beyond Iraq and Syria. The Russian president mentioned that the militants’ influence is also spreading in another war-torn country in the region - Afghanistan.

"Unfortunately the situation in the country [Afghanistan] is degrading after the withdrawal of most foreign troops," Putin said, adding there is a real threat that terror groups from neighboring countries may infiltrate the area.

Putin once again dismissed the accusations against Russia claiming the recent influx of refugees in EU countries was allegedly prompted by Moscow supporting the legitimate government of Syria.

"People are fleeing Syria, first of all, because of military actions … from atrocities of terrorists – we know they are committing brutalities there, and destroying cultural heritage.

 

"If Russia had not been supporting Syria, the situation in the country would have been worse than in Libya and the refugee flow would have been even bigger," Putin said.

He added that it was not Russia who destabilized the situation in such countries as Libya, Iraq, Yemen, Afghanistan and other regions of the world.

"It was not us who destroyed government institutions there creating the power vacuum, which is immediately filled by terrorists," he concluded.

 

https://www.rt.com/news/315374-isis-danger-spread-putin/

Edited September 16, 2015 by TrentVilla

[Awol]

Thanks Trent, I hadn't seen that. I agree with every word he said there, but he knows full well the Gulf States, the US and Europe will not support Assad.

By saying this he has put down a clear marker of where Russia stands and why, so when he ramps up his own support for Assad it will be hard to argue against his logic for doing so without looking ridiculous.

Bad as Assad undoubtedly is, the only alternative right now is the genocide of Syrias minority communities and a Jihadistan fought over by AQ and IS.

The fact Russia has now moved in SA-22 anti aircraft missiles means any direct air attack on the regime by Turkey or NATO countries would be very costly, and should also put an end to Israeli air support for Al Qaeda in the south.

Putin is clearly no angel but he's playing this exactly right, IMO.

Edited September 16, 2015 by Awol

[TrentVilla]

You're welcome mate, oddly hugely under reported in Western media it seems anyone would think it didn't fit with their narrative.

I agree with you he knows they won't or can't support Assad and he is laying the ground work for great involvement in Syria.

It could be the start of a monumental shift in the dynamic and the success to date of ISIS.

I suspect the West won't be quite so critical of Putin on this one.

Edited September 16, 2015 by TrentVilla

[CarewsEyebrowDesigner]

"It is necessary to set aside geopolitical ambitions"

Yes, I'm sure Putin's involvement in Syria is motivated by nothing of the sort.

[TrentVilla]

"It is necessary to set aside geopolitical ambitions"

Yes, I'm sure Putin's involvement in Syria is motivated by nothing of the sort.

As opposed to ours????

[CarewsEyebrowDesigner]

Well, of course. I just find it hilarious that he would say such a thing. At least he isn't pretending to give a **** about democracy or whatever, which is what the West tends to do when we all know the powers that be are quite happy to trade away democracy for a friendly strongman

Anyway if they take on Isis, good luck. Although I suspect the well-documented presence of Chechens among the Isis ranks is the main motivation here.

 

[TrentVilla]

 

Well that an maintaining/strengthening an important strategic partner in the region, while helping to ensure Russia is still a player on a global scale. Plus indirectly thumbing a nose at the West.

I'm not sure what he has said is all that different to statements from Western nations or indeed the motivations or actions.

[omariqy]

Assad and Isis are on even footing for me. Both as evil as can be. Certainly more have been tortured, killed and raped at the behest of Assad. Then again I am sure if ISIS had the same power or reach then it would be the same.

[Awol]

General Austin the commander of US Central Command has had to confess to a Senate committee that their 9 month old, $500 million programme to train moderate Syrian rebels hasn't gone as well as hoped. By now the Pentagon wanted a trained force of 5000 men, but of the 60 or so graduates to date only "4 or 5" remain in the field. The rest were captured, killed or scattered to the wind by Al Qaeda as soon as they crossed over from Turkey.

This was supposed to be the big plan that delivered an alternative to US boots on the ground, but it's so farcical I don't even know how to make a joke about it.  It would be best if the Obama administration now shuts up, stays out of the way and the Russians get on with doing what's needed.  

[OutByEaster?]

General Austin the commander of US Central Command has had to confess to a Senate committee that their 9 month old, $500 million programme to train moderate Syrian rebels hasn't gone as well as hoped. 

For context though, that's less than half of what the US military spends per day. It's a big programme, by any measure, but on the scale of US military spending it's a drop in the ocean. If you were really cynical (like me) you could say that it's been a complete success - $500m of public money has been given to contractors - the result might be less important in terms of how the US works.

Whichever, it's certainly not doing the region any good and I suspect might give a clue on how complicated the situation is in terms of trying to solve it with boots on the ground.

 

 

[Awol]

General Austin the commander of US Central Command has had to confess to a Senate committee that their 9 month old, $500 million programme to train moderate Syrian rebels hasn't gone as well as hoped. 

Whichever, it's certainly not doing the region any good and I suspect might give a clue on how complicated the situation is in terms of trying to solve it with boots on the ground.

The only ultimate solution to this is political, but that solution cannot be reached without a military component.  IS, AQ etc are not going to jack it in and go home, they have to be physically dealt with. That in turn will create the space for reconciliation, governmental transition, the exit of Assad and bringing down the conflict to a manageable level.  IS is now an independent actor, AQ (JaN) under the banner of Jaish al Fateh (the army of conquest) are the direct proxies of Turkey, KSA and Qatar and Assad has direct support from Iran, Russia and Hezbollah.  

The idea that a few thousand US trained rebels were going to tip the balance in these circumstances is so misconceived it's unbelievable it ever got traction in policy circles, but western reluctance to really get involved simply means 'we' have no chance to shape the outcome despite being expected to deal with the fallout - the exodus.