The Arab Spring and "the War on Terror"

[Rugeley Villa]

So russia has just been warming up so far in Syria, they will now go from 50 missions a day to 300.

Poor Isis, soon the only safe place for them will be sweden.

or jeremy corbyn will take them in.

[snowychap]

Double yawn.

[blandy]

The thing with drones for me is that you shouldn't really be bombing anyone in a place where you're not involved in a war.

Drone bombings and the whole idea of targeted assassination are oddly divorced from normal rules, laws and moralities by the looks of things though - or maybe that's just the people that are using them?

 

I think the answer is in the last part "maybe that's just the people that are using them?". I would say this wouldn't I?, but the act of dropping a bomb on someone(s) or something(s) is controlled by rules of engagement. Whether it be from a manned or unmanned platform, or something launched from a ship or whatever. It's as you say the difference from "normal rules" that's the problem, in my view.

I believe that it's not the "drones" that are the problem per se, but the way the U.S. uses them and the decision they have clearly taken that it is acceptable to have innocent people killed in attacks they prosecute.

It's had three consequences - the main one being obviously dead people who shouldn't be dead, or injured. Then the second one AWOL wrote about very well, of radicalising people who otherwise wouldn't have been, and making people in Yemen, Pakistan, Afghanistan  and so on hate the U.S.

Finally there's the third one of the general population of most places perceiving "drones" to be basically "wicked killing machines" (not far short of terminators from the movies) - kind of autonamaton murder weapons.

Drones are and can be (by and large) excellent pieces of engineering and science and technology that enable humans to do many things they couldn't previously do, and not all of those things are bad. Even the ability to attack and kill targets or people otherwise out of reach is not necessarily always a bad thing, though it should hopefully be a rarely used and very carefully used thing to do. But mostly they can do tasks beyond the normal endurance of human occupant aircraft, or have levels of undetectability beyond manned aircraft (because of the need for human factor areas etc. in a manned platform).

[Rugeley Villa]

Double yawn.

 

get yourself to bed mate 

[snowychap]

Double yawn.

 

 

get yourself to bed mate 

 

I doubt that would deal with the root cause, Ruge.

[Rugeley Villa]

Double yawn.

 

 

get yourself to bed mate 

 

I doubt that would deal with the root cause, Ruge.

tell me all about it snowy? was just a tongue in cheek comment regarding old jeremy .

[snowychap]

tell me all about it snowy? was just a tongue in cheek comment regarding old jeremy .

Fair enough, Ruge.

Following on from IKant's post it seemed more. Apologies if I read it wrong.

[Rugeley Villa]

dont like him much but yeah it was just a joke. im done with arguing about this subject ha.

[maqroll]

So the Saudi ambassador to the UK came out in the Telegraph to chastise the British public and government for a perceived change in tone in regards to how people speak of Saudi Arabia.

I hope people protest outside his residence and tell hime to **** off.

 

[OutByEaster?]

To be fair, the Saudi's are responsible for our security according to Mr Cameron. Although I'm not sure if that means they remind IS not to bomb the UK when they hand out the money, or that they put the chequebook away when they start talking about blowing up London - he wasn't particularly clear.

Anyway, thank you Saudi Arabia for everything you do to keep us safe - may the good lord Jesus Christ bless you.

 

[chrisp65]

Apparently the Saudi's singled out Corbyn as a particular threat and irritant.

Nasty piece of work that Corbyn, a threat to families everywhere. Especially those families that like beheadings, lashings and stonings by the look of it.

[ender4]

The thing with drones for me is that you shouldn't really be bombing anyone in a place where you're not involved in a war.

Drone bombings and the whole idea of targeted assassination are oddly divorced from normal rules, laws and moralities by the looks of things though - or maybe that's just the people that are using them?

 

Drone warfare should be illegal, frankly.

 

or have Drone battle arenas... with the winner winning parcels of land or some extra virgins in heaven.

Televised assassination competitions would be cool as well.

 

[choffer]

Telegraph

By Mohammed bin Nawaf bin Abdulaziz

7:41PM GMT 25 Oct 2015

1193 Comments

 

Over the past few weeks, there has been an alarming change in the way Saudi Arabia is discussed in Britain. The Kingdom has always had to deal with a lack of understanding and misconceptions, but on this occasion I feel compelled to address some of the recent criticisms.

"Saudi Arabia is a sovereign state. Our Kingdom is led by our rulers alone, and our rulers are led by Islam alone"

 

 

 

The importance of Saudi Arabia to the UK and the Middle East’s security, as well as its vital role in the larger Arab world as the epicentre of Islam, seems to be of little concern to those who have fomented this change. Yet it should be worrying to all those who do not want to see potentially serious repercussions that could damage the mutually beneficial strategic partnership that our countries have so long enjoyed.

Saudi Arabia is a sovereign state. Our Kingdom is led by our rulers alone, and our rulers are led by Islam alone. Our religion is Islam and our constitution is based on the Holy Qu’ran. Our justice system is based on Sharia law and implemented by our independent judiciary. Just as we respect the local traditions, customs, laws and religion of Britain, we expect Britain to grant us this same respect. We do not seek special treatment, but we do expect fairness. I do recognise, though, that we in the Embassy can do more to create a better understanding of my country.

Saudi Arabia and the UK are fortunate to have forged such a strong alliance – one that dates back to before the foundation of the Kingdom in 1932. Up until a few weeks ago, I would have said it had never been stronger.

The Kingdom’s contribution to Britain’s security and economy provides the foundations on which the bilateral relations between our two countries are built, allowing trade, cultural exchanges and military cooperation to flourish. Saudi Arabia ultimately provides over 50,000 British families in the UK and the Kingdom with livelihoods, thanks to commercial contracts worth tens of billions of pounds. Saudis also have an estimated £90 billion in private business investments in the UK.

"The Kingdom remains an invaluable source of intelligence on the activities of terrorist groups"

 

 

 

 

One recent example of this mutual respect being breached was when Jeremy Corbyn, leader of the Opposition, claimed that he had convinced Prime Minister David Cameron to cancel a prison consultancy contract with Saudi Arabia worth £5.9 million. This coincided with speculation linking the contract’s cancellation to a number of domestic events in the Kingdom.

 

If the extensive trade links between the two countries are going to be subordinate to certain political ideologies, then this vital commercial exchange is going to be at risk. We want this relationship to continue but we will not be lectured to by anyone. Hasty decisions prompted by short-term gains often do more harm than good in the longer term.

Saudi Arabia has also had to contend with disingenuous allegations concerning the Kingdom’s role in the war against terrorist groups such as so-called Isil and al-Qaeda. The fact is that no nation is more invested in the struggle against extremism than the Kingdom, which remains the primary target of such organisations, even more so than Western nations.

Furthermore, the Kingdom remains an invaluable source of intelligence on the activities of terrorist groups. Information from Saudi intelligence in 2010 resulted in a major counter-terrorism success by scuttling an al-Qaeda attempt to blow up a cargo airliner over Britain. In a recent interview, David Cameron confirmed the importance of our contribution when he declared: “Since I have been Prime Minister a piece of information that we have been given by (Saudi Arabia) has saved potentially hundreds of lives here in Britain.” Given information to which I am privy, that number is, in fact, in the thousands.

There have also been other unfounded allegations made against the Kingdom. It has been claimed that it was the convoy of the Saudi deputy crown prince Mohammed bin Salman that caused the recent tragic Mina stampede that killed hundreds of Hajj pilgrims. This is untrue. There has also been intense criticism of the Kingdom’s response to the Syrian refugee crisis. Yet this is unfair, as it fails to acknowledge that Saudi Arabia has taken in over 2.5 million displaced Syrians.

We were pleased to hear Foreign Secretary Phillip Hammond state at the Conservative Party conference that “Gulf security is UK security”. We firmly believe that to be the case. But to further our shared strategic interests in the years ahead as we confront a variety of threats, it is crucial that Saudi Arabia be treated with the respect it has unwaveringly afforded the United Kingdom.

Mohammed bin Nawaf bin Abdulaziz is Ambassador of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia to the United Kingdom

 

 

[ender4]

in the long-term its all irrelevant. 

Apparently, Saudi Arabia and a lot of the Gulf states are going to be inhabitable by 2070 due to climate changes.

[PompeyVillan]

Saudi Arabia won't be lectured by anyone.

Unfortunately.

[Awol]

Saudi Arabia won't be lectured by anyone.

 

Unfortunately.

Those same purveyors of evil will be beating down the doors at Heathrow when IS overruns their shitty country. Still as long as they bring their cash with them I'm sure they'll be made very welcome down the Chelsea Rd.  

Meanwhile rumours abound that they, Qatar and the Turks are in the process of supplying MANPADS to the AQ affiliates in Syria to target Russian aviation. Aside from the obvious idiocy of supplying surface to air missiles to AQ in a country bordering Europe, they might actually shoot down some Russian aircraft.  I don't think the Saudis sense of self regard is going to save them from Vlad's wrath if it happens. 

The Turks have also weighed in over the weekend launching their first attacks against the US allied Kurds in Syria who are fighting against Islamic State (incidentally many dozens of former UK military are fighting with them as unpaid volunteers against IS).  Pretty clear now where Erdogan stands in all this and with fresh Turkish elections on Nov 1st things there could get really interesting. 

[snowychap]

... MANPADS...

To what level of VAT are they subject?

[coda]

There has also been intense criticism of the Kingdom’s response to the Syrian refugee crisis. Yet this is unfair, as it fails to acknowledge that Saudi Arabia has taken in over 2.5 million displaced Syrians.

Is that true?

 

I've read that if oil prices stay low Saudi Arabia will be bankrupt in five years.

[Xann]

 

Meanwhile rumours abound that they, Qatar and the Turks are in the process of supplying MANPADS to the AQ affiliates in Syria to target Russian aviation. Aside from the obvious idiocy of supplying surface to air missiles to AQ in a country bordering Europe, they might actually shoot down some Russian aircraft.  I don't think the Saudis sense of self regard is going to save them from Vlad's wrath if it happens.

 

Vlad's latest shoulder launched SAM is very effective indeed. Both superpowers could do with not proliferating this tech!

[OutByEaster?]

Saudi Arabia won't be lectured by anyone.

 

Unfortunately.

Those same purveyors of evil will be beating down the doors at Heathrow when IS overruns their shitty country. Still as long as they bring their cash with them I'm sure they'll be made very welcome down the Chelsea Rd.  

Meanwhile rumours abound that they, Qatar and the Turks are in the process of supplying MANPADS to the AQ affiliates in Syria to target Russian aviation. Aside from the obvious idiocy of supplying surface to air missiles to AQ in a country bordering Europe, they might actually shoot down some Russian aircraft.  I don't think the Saudis sense of self regard is going to save them from Vlad's wrath if it happens. 

The Turks have also weighed in over the weekend launching their first attacks against the US allied Kurds in Syria who are fighting against Islamic State (incidentally many dozens of former UK military are fighting with them as unpaid volunteers against IS).  Pretty clear now where Erdogan stands in all this and with fresh Turkish elections on Nov 1st things there could get really interesting. 

With the Turks, I can't see what's in it for them - it sounds like they're on the verge of upsetting the US and the Russians for not much gain (other than keeping the Saudi's happy) and Erdogan is on a difficult course - Ataturk's founding principles are of a secular Turkish state, and going directly against those principles is likely to get him a civil war. What are they hoping to gain?