Are we expecting too much ?

[briny_ear]

May I just point out that the question in the thread title:

Are we expecting too much ?

is entirely different from the one in the Poll:

Can we go any Further under MON ?

You could answer Yes/No; Yes/Yes; No/Yes; or No/No to these two questions, so what exactly are we being asked to debate?

Can't vote on these grounds.

EDITED for the 2nd time. Damn this messageboard formatting.

[mrbojangles]

Not just on tonight's performance. But has MON done all that is humanly possible to make us great again ? - and can he possibly take us any further ?- in short is top 6 and cup run as good as it gets under MON - given the size of the club, the established top 4 , and the superior wealth of other clubs ?

why is this a poll about MON? The poll is called are WE expecting too much. Also like you have mentioned the wealth of other clubs it will be very difficult this season. Surely a poll about where we think we will finish would be more fitting?

[Jon]

May I just point out that the question in the thread title:

Are we expecting too much ?

is entirely different from the one in the Poll:

Can we go any Further under MON ?

You could answer Yes/No; Yes/Yes; No/Yes; or No/No to these two questions, so what exactly are we being asked to debate?

Can't vote on these grounds.

EDITED for the 2nd time. Damn this messageboard formatting.

a very good point.

Im opened the thread to comment upon expectations, but was then asked whether MOn had tio taken us as far as he can.

IMO, we are not expecting too much, 3 and a half years into the MON/Randolph project.

At this stage, i'd really hope we would be pushing Top 4, amd at this excat moment, we maybe don't look like doing that.

So, we have a right to feel a little dissapointed, at this excat moment.

However, I do feel MON can perhaps take us further.

he does befuddle me sometimes in the transfer market and in his tactics and team slections, but I do think he has that something special that other managers maybe don't have.

It is entirely possible that MON puts a string of results together now, and we loom pretty come the busy Xmas period.

But, i gave up trying to 2nd guess him many months ago ....

[Risso]

Every single year since he arrived we've got better. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. More points. Better football. Better players. Absolutely everything on and off the field has been consistently improving since the day Martin O'Neill and Randy Lerner arrived.

Aston Villa is probably (off the top of my head) the only club in the Premiership that can say that. In my opinion, anybody who thinks that's not good enough probably has too high expectations.

I don't agree with much of that. The football now is atrocious, and was actually far better at the end of 07/08. Sidwell is now a fixture in midfield, and he isn't a patch on Gareth Barry. Emile Heskey. Emile flaming Heskey.

Well I don't think the football is atrocious and Sidwell is backup for the currently injured Downing. Heskey and Sidwell would have walked into the Villa team when MON first arrived - now they're on the bench.

In my opnion the squad is better this season than last season. Last season's was better than the one before and so on...

That's a huge assumption that Sidwell is back up for Downing. He hasn't kicked a ball in anger yet, so we just don't know what O'Neill has got in store for him. Heskey wouldn't have walked into the team when MON first arrived either. However slow and past it Angel was at that stage, he was still better than the lumbering atrocity that is Emile Heskey. Sidwell's a regular starter now by the way, so not sure what you mean by "on the bench".

[P3te]

The football now is atrocious, and was actually far better at the end of 07/08

thats what really, really, really irks me

we acutally played a bit of ball then, and it worked! what the hell caused the change of approach

[Risso]

but I do think he has that something special that other managers maybe don't have.

That "something special" is just his quirky media personality isn't it? Which to me, is about as much use when it comes to running a football club as tits on a bull.

[Villarocker]

I just read through the last page of this and thought that there are a lot of valid points. Man Utd have 2 players in Rooney and Ferdinand that cost around 30 million each. I think we seem to forget about that kind of investment from them. As well as the 10s of millions spent on the likes of Berbatov, Nani, Anderson etc.

Liverpool also spent a fortune on the likes of Torres, Babel, Kuyt, Johnson and they are often forgotten about too!

I don't think our current performances are better than say 07/08. We beat Chelsea this season, but through two set pieces. When we beat them a couple of years ago, we played them off the park at times. We also got a very good point at their ground, although it should have been all 3! The goals were free-flowing that season and that seems to have been compromised for a sturdier defensive look.

I think we look more stable in defence but our attacking threat seems to have died. I am not too sure what the answer is. Maybe Carew isn't the same player he was 2 years ago, he certainly doesn't seem like it. Our full backs hardly seem to overlap the wingers and this is something I think we are missing when attacking teams. The top 4 clubs all have full backs that play like wingers. Gary Neville is knocking on a bit now but the other night against CSKA he put ball after ball into that box, more so than a ingers on a normal day! I would like to see Luke Young back in and see him and Warnock bombing forward at every opportunity.

Overall I think we are expecting too much from our team. We don't have that extra bit of quality in our side that the likes of the top 4 plus Man City and Spurs have. Those teams have certain players that can change a game with a flash of brilliance but we don't seem to have that. Ash used to be the man but he seems to have been sussed out. I am sure that we will see a better Ash when Downing plays. I am hoping that he plays wide left and Ash wide right so the crosses come in from a more natural angle. Jimmy Milner in midfield would give us more creation and we might start to see more shots from outside the box!

I think that 6th or 7th is the best we can really hope for with the players we have at our disposal. We are going to need better quality somewhere in that team if we are to finish in the top 4.

I do also think that there is a case of "pets corner". We should be playing the right man for the right position and not putting square pegs in round holes just because the manager wants to accomodate that player into the team.

[sled]

but I do think he has that something special that other managers maybe don't have.

That "something special" is just his quirky media personality isn't it? Which to me, is about as much use when it comes to running a football club as tits on a bull.

Yes. "Great PR" etc. Castles in the sand. Froth. Little substance.

Elsewhere I see Downing - who hasn't even kicked a ball for the club yet - is being built up a some kind of saviour. Sad. People have often commented that players who are out of the side (at different times and for different reasons Carew, NRC...) are often seen as potential saviours. Same with Downing sorry.

[blandy]

Briny and Jon make good points.

I disagree to an extent, though.

What do I hope will happen - win stuff, get in the top 4.

What do I expect will happen - finish outside the top 4, win nothing.

What do I demand happens - that the team and manager do their best and make a decent go of it.

If people confuse their hopes and their expectations, or their hopes and demands, then they will only end up disappointed. It looks like a number of posters in this thread have hopes demands and expectations which are one and the same.

As has been pointed out Villa (and not just Villa) started out under MO'N a long, long way behind the Sky 4 sides. A decade or so of Champs league revenue, and the profile and Glory-hunting supporter base that brings, the ability to snaffle the best players, due to profile, and wages - all made them miles ahead.

What's happened under MO'N and Randy, is that Villa has started trying to catch up with them, or to close the gap.

The money side of things, steps have been made, but that part of the equation still has a long way to go. But we're on the way.

The team side of things, again steps have been made, but as with much team building it's not a smooth upwards curve, and certainly at the moment it's been one step forward, er, in the defence, and one step back in the middle and the forwards have not changed either way.

I think most people feel that the next area that needs to improve is the creativity and ball retention in midfield. It's certainly my view, anyway. I don't see why MO'N can't be the person to get in a player(s) to add this aspect. There's not many of them around, though.

The football we're currently playing is dull and uninspiring, but for most of the time MO'N has been manager, it's been good to watch (for me). That can happen again. It's more players than manager that should be the focus area to change, or improve in my view.

A lot of people seem to feel changing the manager will automatically bring better fortunes and so on. I don't think that's anything like the reality. I think given where we are as a club, not just as a team, changing the manager will set back the progress the club continues to make, not just on the pitch, but elsewhere too.

[brummybloke]

coz it was a player who would add more options to what was always a hot and cold attack (granted in previous times its been that carew was injured more than out of form - but i doubt theres ANYONE on here who wouldnt have thought we were far better equipped with a carew/bent/agbonlahor front three, than just the 2 we have right now)

You're right, of course, but I'm sure Randy is also far better equipped being 15M richer. You see, the difference of having someone like Bent in the squad is not the difference between finishing 6th or 4th, more likely , at best, it'd be the difference between finishing 7th or 6th, which is not worth the investment.

That is, if Harry was into doing business with us at all.

yes, having a player who regularly scores 15 to 20 goals per season would not improve us and we are far better off having the 10 million Bent cost, in the bank.

in the league he has played 214 and scored 104, just under a goal per game.

I haven't said anything remotely close to what you're implying...

just incase you forgot what tou put i have made it a little easier for you to remember.

so you are not saying bent is not worth the investment? you are not saying he would not improve us and be the difference between a top 4 and no top 4? did you not say the chairman is better to keep 15 million in the bank rather than get bent?

very odd as you appear to have written it.

[BG_Villa_Fan]

^ Nope, never said Bent wouldn't improve us, I said he wouldn't be the difference between finishing 6th or 4th, and thus not worth the price tag, assuming Harry would deal with us at all.

Also, I've never said that the 10 or 15 M would be better off in the bank, since all evidence points to the fact we've never had this sum available on top of our other spendings.

[geezer]

I cant believe this poll is even on here . MON is a great manager . He has pulled this club upto we we are today . If anyone take us further it will be him .

[Big_John_10]

IMO, we are not expecting too much, 3 and a half years into the MON/Randolph project.

At this stage, i'd really hope we would be pushing Top 4, amd at this excat moment, we maybe don't look like doing that.

But is that realistic, the top 4 have had years and years of spending big money and have reputation that allow them to sign players. Is 3 summer transfer windows enough to catch up with that level of spending and building that the top 4 have had? Everton have finished above us the last 2 seasons, spurs have spent similar to us over the years and man city have spent a fortune over the last 3 years so why should we even expect that our level of investment should have us finishing above those sides?

I think after what happened with roman at chelsea many thought having a billionnaire owner would see us become a super power again but in reality the level of investment randy has put in is required to just get into the uefa cup.

I can see why people think a new manager would offer different things to try and get us in the top 4 but regardless of who is in charge i think expecting top 4 finish is too much at this time in the randy era.

[Ryan.]

I cant believe this poll is even on here . MON is a great manager . He has pulled this club upto we we are today . If anyone take us further it will be him .

The fact is MON has got us to 6th, DOL done that with argubly a weaker squad. Surely we should all be expecting to move foward? and to be honest I really can't see us doing that playing the football we are.

[Liono]

I'm a believer that MON can take us to the next level, but he does need to be more flexible, his tactics and football at times aren't good enough.

[Bazdavies79]

I cant believe this poll is even on here . MON is a great manager . He has pulled this club upto we we are today . If anyone take us further it will be him .

The fact is MON has got us to 6th, DOL done that with argubly a weaker squad. Surely we should all be expecting to move foward? and to be honest I really can't see us doing that playing the football we are.

What's arguable about that? That squads achievements are underplayed somewhat, it was a mid-table squad. I recon DOL earned his money that season, he often got his tactics spot on and we picked up the points.

It's gonna take a similar kind of effort from the players and some astute tactical management to emulate that. This squad, MON has built, COULD, finish top 4. I don't expect it, but we really need to start beating the Wolves, Spams and Wigans if we're going to do it.

Since MON took over we seem to be performing to expected levels, all things considered. We're not underachieving but thus far we've not over reached ourselves either.

[CarewsEyebrowDesigner]

Calm down calm down, your all getting on like a bunch of scousers.

I'll put to the negative nancys this, as they seem to harp on about money constantly.

Yes we've spent loads. But we've build a squad with that money. The big four already have a strong squad and can go out and spend 20+ million on one player to supplement it with quality. Thats were the difference lies.

Can we do that yet? No.

Therefore we won't be sustaining a top four place any time soon.

[VillaChris]

I have a bit of sympathy for Paul in this thread tbh. I too chuckle at this notion that if MON left tommorrow we'd be left between a choice of Southgate, Staunton and Souness for the manager's job.

While the big hitters like Hiddink, Mourinho etc would be out of reach, loads of up and coming managers in europe would probably swim the channel to manage in the prem, better pay, standard of players profile etc. Of course they could be the next Ramos. But they could also be the next Mourinho.

If we wanted to stay British, then I'm sure Moyes would be quite interested in our great financial strength especially if he's overlooked for the Manure job. And Hodgson hasn't done a bad job at Fulham with a bunch of prem rejects.

As for this season, as I said on another thread I'd be ecstatic with 4th or a cup win, very happy with 5th, quite happy with 6th again, underwhelmed but realistic with 7th (which I think is where we'll end up tbh) and questioning MON quite a bit if we finish 8th as that will mean as well as Liverpool, Spurs, City all finishing above us will also mean someone like Everton, Sunderland or a Wigan finishing above us. I think after the money spent, there would be a lot of questions asked.

MON has been backed without interference in the transfer market and runs the club they way he wants it too. Not many prem managers have that luxury. We also haven't lost that many key players in the past 4 seasons, only Barry and Laursen really so it's very much been a case of MON moulding his own team and it sticking together.

Will it be good enough to break into the top 4 anytime soon? On the evidence of last night, it's still a long way off despite the money spent? Should MON be sacked? Again not for me as I expect him to qualify us for europe again this season and I'm not sure how you can sack a manager who achieves that most seasons. I do think the end of next season is still the most realistic time to assess, five seasons of MON doing things his way. If we're no closer to getting in the top 4 or winning trophies, a parting of the ways may be best for everyone.

[Vojskovoda]

Of course O'Neill can take us further and I believe he's the man that can take us to 'top 4' destiny... but what's stopping us from achieving that goal is poor team-selections week-in-week-out, not dropping certain player's who offer ZERO to the team and **** around with the formation. No Villans are expecting too much, we just don't understand why O'Neill is ruining our chances of winning something and breaking into the 'elusive' top 4.

Until O'Neill eradicate's all those horrible habits, we won't be progressing much further as we have in the last two years. Simples as that really.

[sled]

Simples? Plural? That's 3 times I've seen that today.