Cup or CL qualification?

[Pinebro]

2 minutes ago, nick76 said:

Hmmm not sure I agree.  Yes about winning the league or CL but I think you become bigger these days being in the CL than winning the FA Cup, League Cup or the ECL.  

West Ham won the ECL but finished poorly in the league and thus West Ham are seen less of a threat now than at the end of the previous season, which under the rules you laid out they should be bigger now but they aren’t are they!

Because conference has zero value

It's basically lower than the league cup. Well they ae both 3rd rate competition so I'd value them very similar

Edited August 5, 2023 by Pinebro

[DakotaVilla]

Conference does have value and prestige and we shouldn’t forget that it gives guaranteed UEFA cup entry. Ultimately, winning the UEFA cup next season maybe a more realistic route into the champions league as the fight for top 5 is going to be ridiculous. Realistically, no matter how much we want it,  It’s unlikely we finish ahead of Man City, Arsenal, Liverpool or Man Utd which means we are fighting for 5th against Chelsea, Spurs, Brighton, Newcastle etc, which would be a ridiculous season in itself. 
 

Also, don’t conflate West Ham’s very poor running as a club with some imagined slight on the Conference. 

[nick76]

 

2 hours ago, Pinebro said:

Because conference has zero value

It's basically lower than the league cup. Well they ae both 3rd rate competition so I'd value them very similar

 

but you said…

14 hours ago, Pinebro said:

Cup all day

Or do you just mean FA Cup but then if we won League Cup and/or ECL, that’s surely winning which your second sentence below fulfils?

13 hours ago, Pinebro said:

Wenger has cond several generations of football fans with his top 4 is like a trophy comment.

Elite sport is about winning. End of.

and second sentence here

2 hours ago, Pinebro said:

I don't remember Leicester becoming any more popular or attractive for being in the CL one year.

The way you become bigger is to win stuff.

I can imagine Villa would have much less worldwide support had they not won the european cup.

But then final sentence says European Cup

 

 

So are you Cup over 4th place only if it’s FA Cup this season?  

If it’s League Cup or ECL then you’d prefer 4th?

 

Or was the above ‘Cup all day’ right but if we win LC or ECL it has zero value? So finishing 4th would have even less value than winning either those?

 

 

Edited August 5, 2023 by nick76

[Pinebro]

2 hours ago, nick76 said:

 

 

but you said…

Or do you just mean FA Cup but then if we won League Cup and/or ECL, that’s surely winning which your second sentence below fulfils?

and second sentence here

But then final sentence says European Cup

 

 

So are you Cup over 4th place only if it’s FA Cup this season?  

If it’s League Cup or ECL then you’d prefer 4th?

 

Or was the above ‘Cup all day’ right but if we win LC or ECL it has zero value? So finishing 4th would have even less value than winning either those?

 

 

Yep cup all day.

I value any trophy over just top 4.

Preferably we can do both but if you forced me with a gun and I had to choose I would pick any trophy over top 4.

[TomC]

15 hours ago, JPJCB said:

But how many non top 6 clubs have used their cup wins as a platform for greater success? Wigan? SHA? Swansea? If you asked me whether I’d rather their recent history or Spurs’s I’d take spurs’s every time despite the lack of trophy.

Fortunately, we're a bigger club than any of those three. Winning a cup doesn't mean we're doomed to their fate.

But the fact that SHA has won a trophy more recently than we have makes me want to win a trophy even more.

 

Quote

The only exception here is Leicester but winning the PL itself was a freak outcome and I’d still argue that CL football was an important part of that successful period 

Leicester did both of the things mentioned in this thread, CL qualification (heck, they won the PL) AND they won a cup. And they got relegated. No guarantees of the future for anyone.

[Davkaus]

It does seem like a tragic indictment of football that winning the FA Cup is less valuable than finishing 4th, now 5th. I still think the FA Cup winner should get a CL spot instead of 4th/5th.

It probably is better for the club to finish 5th for the money and the value of offering players CL football, but it's depressing that you have to be in your late 30s to have much memory of us lifting silverware other than the coveted Peace Cup. 

[AvfcRigo82]

6 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

I still think the FA Cup winner should get a CL spot instead of 4th/5th.

Na, Bring back the cup winners cup for that!

.. and League cup gets you Europa League.

Who knows, one day they might change the format again where FA Cup winners go into Europa League and League Cup winners go into the conference league or something?

 

[TomC]

14 hours ago, mikeyp102 said:

Because of the money involved, I’ve given up hope that we’ll ever win the league or Europe again, unless it’s a freak season like Leicester. The gulf between the likes of city (and soon to be Newcastle)is just too much.

The world changes. "Ever again" is a long time.

City seem invincible right now...but is that because of their money, or because of Guardiola? They won the PL a few times before he got there, but they were far from their current dominance. Let's not forget that Liverpool finished 1 point behind them twice in recent years...convert one Liverpool draw into a win each of those two seasons, and it would be 3 of the last 6 for both of them instead of 5 of the last 6 for City, and we'd be talking about a duopoly, not a dynasty. That's a fine margin. Heck, if Emi had started instead of Olsen in the last game in 2022, maybe City wouldn't have completed the comeback that sealed the title. They lucked out on someone else's injury.

And when Guardiola retires, are they going to get the next manager right? Man U has plenty of money, but look at them post-Ferguson. Chelsea have spent a load of money since Boehle arrived and look where it got them last year. PSG have spent a load of money and still can't win the CL. The first "galacticos" era at Real Madrid ended up getting them relatively little. North American sport is full of examples where teams spent but got it wrong. Money can help you recover from mistakes, but it doesn't prevent you from making them.

Not to mention that someday, the Abu Dhabi royal family may get bored with the club and sell it to someone whose resources are more limited.

Not to mention that sooner or later, the PL and European football in general will probably impose a stricter spending system than the current FFP system (probably something closer to a North American salary cap system) that is harder to wriggle out of than FFP. City is just one club. If everyone else, including the other "Big Six," think that City is getting too far ahead, they have the votes to change the system.

The game has its problems right now, but things won't stay the same.

 

[Condimentalist]

Winning a cup would mean a lot more than three games in the CL - especially the FA Cup. 

If we could get to the quarters and beyond of the CL then I'd maybe take that above the League Cup, but really football is about winning. 

The wonderful thing is I can see both happening in the next few years if we can keep Mr Emery around. 

[Captain_Townsend]

The weird thing about Villa, compared to say Spurs or Everton, is that our modern successful eras have come sort of at a time when English football was utterly dominated by other clubs- Liverpool and Forest late 70s/early 80s and Man Utd in the 90s. We have never had an era where we became successful at a time when the field was clear because of the collapse of other dynasties ( Man Utd somewhat fortunate Liverpool were a mess in the early 90s, you could say Liverpool and Man City have been somewhat fortunate that Man Utd post Ferguson have been a bit of a mess).

I honestly think we are on the brink of something and yet again it will involve us having to burst through a really tough field of teams to win honours. That said, if a Man City were to implode in coming years who is to say the planets wouldn't align for a tilt at the league championship? 

[John]

What a difficult choice.

My first thought was to win the EUFA Conference League, which brings Europa League qualification and UE rather likes that cup. 

Having watched the Supercomputer prediction for next season's PL on YouTube, I must admit that seeing us top of the league for several weeks, reminded me of the euphoria of 1980-81. Not actually winning it in turn, brought back the eventual disappointment of twice finishing runners-up since then, but Champions League qualification would be far better compensation this time. 

Then I thought about the FA Cup, the one major domestic trophy that I like others of a similar vintage, have yet to see us lift. It also brings qualification for the group stage of the Europa Cup. I would really love to see us win that and for the player whose goals won it for us to be able to see it happen (see below).   

On balance, I would prefer a cup then. 

   

 

[MotoMkali]

1 hour ago, Condimentalist said:

Winning a cup would mean a lot more than three games in the CL - especially the FA Cup. 

If we could get to the quarters and beyond of the CL then I'd maybe take that above the League Cup, but really football is about winning. 

The wonderful thing is I can see both happening in the next few years if we can keep Mr Emery around. 

6 games in the CL and competing in the knockout stages in the Europa League 

[Marka Ragnos]

10 hours ago, Villarocker said:

Villa are winning a trophy this season. I even told an Arsenal fan at work that Villa will not only win a trophy this season but, we'll also finish above the Gooners. 

Could see it. 

[Marka Ragnos]

4 hours ago, Davkaus said:

It does seem like a tragic indictment of football that winning the FA Cup is less valuable than finishing 4th, now 5th. I still think the FA Cup winner should get a CL spot instead of 4th/5th.

It probably is better for the club to finish 5th for the money and the value of offering players CL football, but it's depressing that you have to be in your late 30s to have much memory of us lifting silverware other than the coveted Peace Cup. 

Yes. It is. Globalisation of football … inevitably, national competitions have receded somewhat. English football traditions are victims of their own success?

Edited August 5, 2023 by Marka Ragnos

[The_Rev]

23 hours ago, Awol said:

Top 4. Trophy would be great, but Champions League is the accelerator you need to reach the next level consistently. 

 

I see it the other way.  Just look at Spurs over the past decade or so.  They've consistently qualified for the Champions League, had some of the best players in their entire history represent them (Bale and Kane being particular standouts) and they've earned enough money to build a shiny new stadium on the back of it, yet their fans are currently miserable and consider this period a failure because they failed to win a trophy.   I get you can build a platform from having Champions League money, but I'd take the FA Cup over 4th any day of the week.  

[MotoMkali]

3 minutes ago, The_Rev said:

 

I see it the other way.  Just look at Spurs over the past decade or so.  They've consistently qualified for the Champions League, had some of the best players in their entire history represent them (Bale and Kane being particular standouts) and they've earned enough money to build a shiny new stadium on the back of it, yet their fans are currently miserable and consider this period a failure because they failed to win a trophy.   I get you can build a platform from having Champions League money, but I'd take the FA Cup over 4th any day of the week.  

And they had many opportunities to win a trophy. It's just been unfortunate for them that they've been unable to do so. 

[Awol]

1 hour ago, The_Rev said:

 

I see it the other way.  Just look at Spurs over the past decade or so.  They've consistently qualified for the Champions League, had some of the best players in their entire history represent them (Bale and Kane being particular standouts) and they've earned enough money to build a shiny new stadium on the back of it, yet their fans are currently miserable and consider this period a failure because they failed to win a trophy.   I get you can build a platform from having Champions League money, but I'd take the FA Cup over 4th any day of the week.  

If you put a guaranteed FA Cup win on the table it would be hard to turn down for a 4th place finish, no doubt. The Spurs example is a fair one, but I’d argue they were their own worst enemy most of the time. We are better run and managed, imo, and less likely to hose away the opportunities they’ve had to cement their place in the European elite.

[villan95]

Well there's your trophy everyone

 

Edited August 6, 2023 by villan95

[cheltenham_villa]

Cup is the only answer. We've only won 2 really in my villa watching lifetime. I remember both days so well, I'd give anything to share a  cup win with my son.

[AndyM3000]

If you want to progress as a club you have to get Champions League football. Nobody is joining us because we won a league cup the previous season, they certainly will if we have Champions League football to play.

If we win the league cup but finish 10th we've gone backwards.