Energy Bills

[foreveryoung]

50 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

 

I wonder what the total contribution to global warming was, across the planet, of that protest? What do you reckon 10 or 15% of total environmental destruction? I dunno, possibly more.

They didn’t exactly set light to oil fields. It’s an utterly bogus argument that they caused a traffic jam which is bad for the environment. It’s such an infinitesimal amount of additional pollution. It’s just an easy lazy way to dismiss something we should all be doing anyway, but its a bit inconvenient.

Anyway, I’ve done grafitti on a wall that is cycling distance from my house. I’ll await the TV cameras.

Maybe the stop oil protesters are better at this Protesting thing. Like they have smashed a few petrol pumps up in London and Manchester, an graffiti stop oil over them. That's not protesting or helping anyone, that's just purely criminal damage and will not increase support.

[foreveryoung]

Is Zahami for real??  Apparently, we need to learn how to cut down on energy usage, but no worries cause help is coming for the most vulnerable. Is he in the real world!!  It's not just the most vulnerable who are at risk of going under??   You could have a household income of more than 40k and you'll still find yourself struggling with nearly 4k rising to 6k+  energy bills

I wish this government would wake up to the reality of life. I guess they won't be worrying how they are gonna pay for the energy in their second homes.

[Genie]

1 minute ago, foreveryoung said:

Is Zahami for real??  Apparently, we need to learn how to cut down on energy usage, but no worries cause help is coming for the most vulnerable. Is he in the real world!!  It's not just the most vulnerable who are at risk of going under??   You could have a household income of more than 40k and you'll still find yourself struggling with nearly 4k rising to 6k+  energy bills

I wish this government would wake up to the reality of life. I guess they won't be worrying how they are gonna pay for the energy in their second homes.

Yep, move the family into the second home. The heating on the pool is free there. Job done. 

[bickster]

 

[The Fun Factory]

44 minutes ago, foreveryoung said:

Is Zahami for real??  Apparently, we need to learn how to cut down on energy usage, but no worries cause help is coming for the most vulnerable. Is he in the real world!!  It's not just the most vulnerable who are at risk of going under??   You could have a household income of more than 40k and you'll still find yourself struggling with nearly 4k rising to 6k+  energy bills

I wish this government would wake up to the reality of life. I guess they won't be worrying how they are gonna pay for the energy in their second homes.

It the modern day version of Norman Tebbit telling everyone to get on their bikes and look for a job.

[blandy]

4 hours ago, sidcow said:

They are something like 3-400% efficient (which should blow @bickster's mind) compared to the very very best gas boiler which is around 90% efficient.  The reason is they are not actually creating heat, they are just moving it about and concentrating it. So for every 1kw of power (electricity) you put in you get 3-4kw of heat out.

No. It's not possible to be more than 100% efficient. Energy cannot be created or destroyed, only converted from one form to another. They may be more efficient than gas boilers, though I doubt by much - certainly not 3 or 4 times more efficient, because modern gas boilers are (as you say) around about 80 to 90 percent efficient.

It must be a terminology thing that's got mixed up somewhere in translation.

[sidcow]

23 minutes ago, blandy said:

No. It's not possible to be more than 100% efficient. Energy cannot be created or destroyed, only converted from one form to another. They may be more efficient than gas boilers, though I doubt by much - certainly not 3 or 4 times more efficient, because modern gas boilers are (as you say) around about 80 to 90 percent efficient.

It must be a terminology thing that's got mixed up somewhere in translation.

https://www.theecoexperts.co.uk/heat-pumps/air-source-heat-pump-efficiency

The Ultimate Guide to Air Source Heat Pump Efficiency

✔ Air source heat pumps have a typical efficiency rating of 300%

✔ That’s at least three times better than all gas boilers

✔ They can achieve that level of efficiency without polluting the planet

Quote

Air source heat pumps typically have an efficiency rate of 300%, though the best ones can reach much higher rates.

This means that on average, your air source heat pump will produce an outstanding three units of energy for every unit of electricity it absorbs.

To put this in context, the average UK home uses just over 12,000 kWh per year for heating, and your heat pump would be able to provide the same amount of heat from just 4,000 kWh.

In comparison, electric boilers are four times worse – with an efficiency rate of 100% – while the best gas boilers can only reach 98% efficiency, at most.

Quote

Electricity is usually four times more expensive than gas, which negates any gains you’d make from your heat pump’s incredible efficiency – but the times are changing.

With gas prices on the rise, and electricity fast becoming the best way for the UK to reach its goal of net-zero emissions by 2050, you’d be investing in a future that’s almost here – and which will save you an enormous amount on your heating bill when it does arrive.

 

 

https://www.nu-heat.co.uk/renewables/air-source-heat-pumps/#:~:text=How efficient are air source heat pumps%3F&text=An air source heat pump is around 300% efficient.,heat energy into the property.

Why Choose an Air Source Heat Pump?

What is an air source heat pump and how do they work? Here’s how these quiet, efficient air source heating systems can save you energy and money.

Quote

A heat pump extracts heat energy from the air or ground, even when it is cold outside, and uses it to warm your home.

A well-designed heat pump system transfers around three to four times more energy into a property as heat then it uses to extract it. As a result, heat pumps are incredibly efficient.

Quote

They extract heat energy from the air in order to warm your home and provide hot water. Aside from their eco-credentials, an ASHP system is also very efficient.

For every unit of energy it uses to extract heat from the air, it typically outputs three times more as heat, meaning ASHP efficiency is around 300%!

 

 

Pretty much anything you read about heat pumps will talk about this 3-400% efficiency

Yes it's a language issue, but they are MASSIVELY more efficient than Gas Boilers by magnitudes.

Edited August 26, 2022 by sidcow

[blandy]

32 minutes ago, sidcow said:

Yes it's a language issue, but they are MASSIVELY more efficient than Gas Boilers by magnitudes.

It is a language issue.

"Generates" more energy than it uses - not possible. I'm being pedantic, but they do not "generate" energy, they transfer energy (heat) from outside to inside at the cost of electrical energy [which is changed into kinetic energy (in the heat pump) and whatever the proper word for energy stored as fluid pressure is].

Because they operate completely differently to boilers, which convert the stored energy in gas into thermal energy at around 80 % efficiency (heat is lost via the flue etc.), they have this "coefficient of performance" which can be as you say, 3 or 4 (times). But scientifically their efficiency in turning electrical energy into kinetic energy in a pump, plus a bit of heat (from friction) and pressure, which is then used to transfer external heat into internal heat is still less than 100%.

It's not really comparing apples with apples using the term efficiency, which is why coefficient of performance is the correct term. I guess it's like analogous to using a lever to lift something, or gears, or whatever - the outcome appears to be more than the input, but it actually isn't.

[markavfc40]

4 hours ago, Davkaus said:

The first thing I intend to do is turn off the heating and lights in the servant's quarters. 

Thanks for doing your bit.  Reassuring to know we are all in this together.

[Demitri_C]

2 hours ago, foreveryoung said:

Is Zahami for real??  Apparently, we need to learn how to cut down on energy usage, but no worries cause help is coming for the most vulnerable. Is he in the real world!!  It's not just the most vulnerable who are at risk of going under??   You could have a household income of more than 40k and you'll still find yourself struggling with nearly 4k rising to 6k+  energy bills

I wish this government would wake up to the reality of life. I guess they won't be worrying how they are gonna pay for the energy in their second homes.

His next plan is spend your evenings on a 2 hour shop in tesco to use their heating so you dont have to use your own for longer

[foreveryoung]

15 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

His next plan is spend your evenings on a 2 hour shop in tesco to use their heating so you dont have to use your own for longer

Scarf and glove vouchers. 

[MakemineVanilla]

25 minutes ago, blandy said:

It is a language issue.

"Generates" more energy than it uses - not possible. I'm being pedantic, but they do not "generate" energy, they transfer energy (heat) from outside to inside at the cost of electrical energy [which is changed into kinetic energy (in the heat pump) and whatever the proper word for energy stored as fluid pressure is].

Because they operate completely differently to boilers, which convert the stored energy in gas into thermal energy at around 80 % efficiency (heat is lost via the flue etc.), they have this "coefficient of performance" which can be as you say, 3 or 4 (times). But scientifically their efficiency in turning electrical energy into kinetic energy in a pump, plus a bit of heat (from friction) and pressure, which is then used to transfer external heat into internal heat is still less than 100%.

It's not really comparing apples with apples using the term efficiency, which is why coefficient of performance is the correct term. I guess it's like analogous to using a lever to lift something, or gears, or whatever - the outcome appears to be more than the input, but it actually isn't.

A lot of air-conditioning units can operate in both directions - remove heat from the building and put it into the atmosphere, or remove heat from the atmosphere and put it into the building.

I am not sure how much heat they can extract from the air if it is minus 10 degrees, but it would seem unlikely it could manage to heat a house to 25C.

At what temperature would the heat pump use more energy than it extracts?

I gather they are recommended to supplement heating rather than replace it.

It needs some maths bod to calculate the volume of air in a semi, and then calculate how much heat (choose your own units) it would take to heat the whole house to 25C.

Anyone know the specific heat of air and does it change with density/temperature?

Putting a jumper on looks like a simpler solution.

 

[It's Your Round]

11 minutes ago, foreveryoung said:

Scarf and glove vouchers. 

For clothing companies that were set up yesterday by Tory party friends, families and donors. 

[Brumstopdogs]

3 hours ago, sidcow said:

This is our issue. The washing machine is on almost constantly. No matter how may times you tell them to think before they put stuff in the washing basket they just chuck everything in. Meanwhile I've had the same jeans on for 2 weeks now. 

[a m ole]

Tinfoil hat theory - chances the government are letting household builds soar intentionally to force more people to return to the office?

Edited August 26, 2022 by a m ole

[trekka]

5 minutes ago, a m ole said:

Tinfoil hat theory - chances the government are letting household builds soar intentionally to force more people to return to the office?

Glad that you added the tinfoil hat theory comment  It just makes no sense - businesses are facing extreme pressures too with soaring energy costs.  I guess if you're talking about the civil service then Rees-Mogg would approve however.  If anything, businesses that occupy offices might well ask their staff to work from home to reduce their overall costs. 

Edited August 26, 2022 by trekka

[sidcow]

21 minutes ago, MakemineVanilla said:

At what temperature would the heat pump use more energy than it extracts?

I gather they are recommended to supplement heating rather than replace it.

Heat pumps are absolutely complete replacement for heating, not supplementary. 

You could probably buy fairly cheaply a mini split air to air source heat pump to use as supplementary heating. I am actually considering this mainly because I was genuinely thinking about installing an air conditioning unit and these sort of heat pumps can indeed be reversed and used for cooling as well. 

But these are the air conditioning "like" systems. They will probably replace traditional air conditioning units as well as they are more efficient than traditional air conditioning units and look and feel pretty much the same. 

But mini split heat pumps are rare as hens teeth here. 

What we are mainly seeing/talking about is a heat pump that replaces a boiler in heating your radiators and heating your water.  Air to water heat pump. Same technology but implemented differently. 

As mentioned before you need to get to minus 20 or so before they stop being effective. That's highly unlikely to happen IN England.  One of the biggest markets for heat pumps is Norway..... They get proper cold there. 

Edited August 26, 2022 by sidcow

[Genie]

A BBC journalist managed to find our PM on duty, he just said there is another package of help and it will be announced in September (by his replacement I assume).

[ender4]

5 minutes ago, a m ole said:

Tinfoil hat theory - chances the government are letting household builds soar intentionally to force more people to return to the office?

Old people die from cold, lower waiting lists on the NHS, more housing available.

[sidcow]

2 minutes ago, ender4 said:

Old people die from cold, lower waiting lists on the NHS, more housing available.

 Nah, they've already killed them off with Covid by deliberately not locking down early enough.