Energy Bills

[tinker]

19 hours ago, blandy said:

Because they had so many customers, they couldn't be passed on to other energy companies. So the Government took over bulb. But bulb was (and still is) losing huge sums of money - taxpayer money, now.

The customers have payed their bills and still continue to pay their bills. Was/is bulb that badly run that they are losing money on operating costs or did they make promises on prices that they couldn't and still can't deliver on (as wholesale prices are now so high) 

[blandy]

38 minutes ago, tinker said:

The customers have payed their bills and still continue to pay their bills. Was/is bulb that badly run that they are losing money on operating costs or did they make promises on prices that they couldn't and still can't deliver on (as wholesale prices are now so high) 

Bulb went under because the price of gas increased, but the price they charged customers was fixed (below what it increased to). They could/should have bought, in advance, gas at a fixed price to make sure they were OK - hedged. it's like a gamble. If you think the price of gas will fall, then you don't make an order now to cover the next 6 months, as you believe it will be cheaper to buy more later. But it didn't fall, it rose and they were then paying more for gas than they were getting from customers.

With the other companies, their customers were passed on to other suppliers, who it actually costs to take them on, but they should get a return in the longer term. The current SVT limit  is in many cases also below the cost to actually buy the gas from the market. Some are raking it in, because they are both retailers and drillers, others are not. So a company like shell is quids in, but Bulb lost so much that its backers wouldn't put more money in and all its debt and losees had to be taken over by the guvmint. 

[tinker]

So basically the company can gamble on the prices and if it goes tits up the tax payers will bail them out. Great illustration on why the energy companies should be nationalised. 

[Genie]

1 minute ago, tinker said:

So basically the company can gamble on the prices and if it goes tits up the tax payers will bail them out. Great illustration on why the energy companies should be nationalised. 

I’m not sure it would help.

If the wholesale price goes up and the end customers are protect from that price because of nationalisation then “the government” will pay the difference, which then of course is paid for by tax payers at some stage.

The mega high wholesale costs, and mega high profits of Shell and BP are showing it’s  not costing any more to get the gas or oil extracted, but they are charging far more. This is the critical part of the process which needs to be controlled.

It could happen with petrol too, what’s to stop it doubling again at the pump, but the producers see their profits rocket up?

[tinker]

5 minutes ago, Genie said:

I’m not sure it would help.

If the wholesale price goes up and the end customers are protect from that price because of nationalisation then “the government” will pay the difference, which then of course is paid for by tax payers at some stage.

The mega high wholesale costs, and mega high profits of Shell and BP are showing it’s  not costing any more to get the gas or oil extracted, but they are charging far more. This is the critical part of the process which needs to be controlled.

It could happen with petrol too, what’s to stop it doubling again at the pump, but the producers see their profits rocket up?

Nationalised so the government can  minimises the profits made , not subsidise the high costs if the wholesale price rises. But in all honesty the high prices benefit the tax office as much as the oil companies..

[lapal_fan]

44 minutes ago, tinker said:

Nationalised so the government can  minimises the profits made , not subsidise the high costs if the wholesale price rises. But in all honesty the high prices benefit the tax office as much as the oil companies..

Bad in some ways because the competition has saved people a lot of money over quite a long term.  

Much like we saw in 2020, when global oil prices absolutely collapsed, in late 2021 and now 22, we're seeing price hikes on a huge scale - but not on oil, which is the weird thing.

When the prices in 2020 collapsed, the companies like bulb etc, didn't bet that the prices would spike so largely, so people fixing contracts in 2020 (and many did) have since seen wholesale prices sky rocket above the fixed contract prices which Bulb etc hedged (bet on). 

Also, from a commercial procurement point of view, the government procurement body CCS (Crown Commercial Services) do a very shit job, and are more expensive than many, many third party intermediaries which procure for their clients.   

[blandy]

1 hour ago, Genie said:

The mega high wholesale costs, and mega high profits of Shell and BP are showing it’s  not costing any more to get the gas or oil extracted, but they are charging far more. This is the critical part of the process which needs to be controlled.

It could happen with petrol too, what’s to stop it doubling again at the pump, but the producers see their profits rocket up?

The only thing I'd quibble with, and it's a minor one, is that it's kind of not really Shell (or whoever) "charging" more. The Gas is traded on a market, and the mixture of supply and demand means the price is affected - rising demand post lockdowns, reduced supply due to Russia/Ukraine means it's not like Shell saying "I know, let's charge double" and more than when demand fell due to Covid they said "I know let's charge less"

And yes, it's exactly the same with Oil, where places like RSA and UAE are declining to increase their production to fill the gap from Russia.

[sidcow]

2 hours ago, tinker said:

So basically the company can gamble on the prices and if it goes tits up the tax payers will bail them out. Great illustration on why the energy companies should be nationalised. 

No, if you were a shareholder in Bulb you would have lost your money. The company is still bust. 

[sidcow]

I read a report about this somewhere.  Basically the larger/traditional established utility companies were properly run and hedged their supplies, which obviously costs money but protects them against fluctuations.  But obviously makes them more expensive. 

Meanwhile a load of hooray Henris burst into the market with no experience, poor management and undercut them without the expense of hedging. So they basically made hay when the sun was shining then went under as soon as the wholesale price became unaffordable for them to buy on their cheap fixed customer fixed deals. 

People are more than happy to jump on the cheaper prices but don't do any research about who they are buying from. 

[lapal_fan]

20 minutes ago, sidcow said:

I read a report about this somewhere.  Basically the larger/traditional established utility companies were properly run and hedged their supplies, which obviously costs money but protects them against fluctuations.  But obviously makes them more expensive. 

Meanwhile a load of hooray Henris burst into the market with no experience, poor management and undercut them without the expense of hedging. So they basically made hay when the sun was shining then went under as soon as the wholesale price became unaffordable for them to buy on their cheap fixed customer fixed deals. 

People are more than happy to jump on the cheaper prices but don't do any research about who they are buying from. 

I "worked" for a "company" which had a department for procuring energy contracts.

The "department" was the husband of the director, in a tiny 1-man office, within a small let-office property. 

I left after 3 months.  They've since changed trading names about 3 times

 

[Genie]

I managed to get another gift card for 20% off from my bank. I’ll use it for car fuel. Makes it a bargain £1.36 a litre.

[Xela]

On 02/04/2022 at 10:04, Xela said:

177.9 yesterday so the super unleaded prices have increased at the local Shell in the last 3 weeks. 

183.9 on Thursday. 

Highest i've ever paid at that station. 

[Xela]

Submitted my meter readings the other day. First time since 1st April. Worked out to be about £120 for 6 weeks, so £80 a month on average. Thats fine, i'll take that! 

I have reduced my energy usage a lot though by not having my heating on when i normally would. 

[sidcow]

It's times like this I appreciate my 1 litre 3 pot engine!

[tinker]

18 minutes ago, sidcow said:

It's times like this I appreciate my 1 litre 3 pot engine!

Mmm the 3 litre twin turbo is hurting me tbh. 

[Lichfield Dean]

24 minutes ago, sidcow said:

It's times like this I appreciate my 1 litre 3 pot engine!

We used to have an 800cc 3 pot Daewoo Matiz, and for some reason that tiny little buzzy engine was absolutely loads of fun.

[foreveryoung]

I know generally motorway services fuel is more expensive, cause they like to take the piss out of us drivers when we stop for a snack. Generally I pay £1.74 a litre at Tesco, £1.84 Esso, but at Knutsford services yesterday and a few others I've seen it was £199.9 a Litre for diesel, that's not far off £10 a gallon. 

[foreveryoung]

Another 2p a litre on fuel today

[magnkarl]

I'm edging closer and closer to filling our roof with solar, adding a used electrical car battery to our shed and disconnecting from the grid all together. The return on investment time is getting smaller and smaller with these insane prices and to be honest I'm tired of propping up a failing energy system with taxes and hard earned money.

[Genie]

47 minutes ago, foreveryoung said:

Another 2p a litre on fuel today

Those oil companies must be really struggling to make ends meet.