Tammy Abraham

[Jas10]

@TRO

I don’t think Ollie and Tammy would play together, not for the majority of the time anyway. Unless you play with 5 defenders (which we won’t, look at Dean’s history), no successful team plays with 2 strikers or CFs in this day and age.

I don’t know where this notion that Dean is suddenly going to change systems, formations and tactics is coming from honestly. There’s no justification or evidence for it. 

You know better and more than me mate. 3 midfielders is the common trend these days and for 2 to play together they have to be world class and it’s still difficult and you can still get overran, overpowered etc.

I don’t see Ollie as an AM, SS or even a WF. Even though he could do a job in those positions, he is not at at “elite” enough level to truly thrive there at PL level - imo. He can be an elite CF though…

Ollie is an outstanding CF, truly an exceptional signing and player for us.

A CAM is a different role that requires a different skill set. Technical proficiency, skill and composure on the ball, exceptional passing range and quality. The ability to almost freely score and create, particularly. Do not underestimate the trequartista

Playing a striker as a CAM is a move suited to a lower, more mediocre team imo. When you are having to fit in players and cover position due to a lack of quality and options. We should not have that problem anymore, we have great players and are bringing more in.

Just my POV, no offence intended.

[weedman]

Everyone focusing on the £40m mark is ignoring a pretty important detail here. Tammy featured in more than 20 games last season, we play 1 up front and have Watkins.

Why would he move from the club he supports to a club he doesn't for, at best, the same amount of game time?! 

Without Europe we only play 45 odd games a season, even a nice 50/50 split with Watkins plus the odd "throw them both on if we need a goal" matches he's going to struggle to get the same number of games for us as he will for Chelsea. 

It would be a poor use of our budget and a terrible move for him to make. He'd be better off at nearly any other team

[TRO]

9 minutes ago, Jas10 said:

Wow @nick76, I certainly admire your conviction and energy.  

Can’t really compete with that mate

I don’t want to keep repeating myself, just make clear (again) that I don’t have anything against Tammy but my concern is cost and use of budget. We don’t have to buy a striker or forward costing 40m, even 30m at this stage imo. But I never said we don’t need one.

I could give you some names or do some research but I already know what your response will be. And it’s not really my responsibility to target and come up with a list of players. From the players we’ve been linked to, Alvarez excites me greatly. But there are a whole host of other options out there. There is value to be had. At home and abroad.

I don’t go along (as much as others) with the notion that signing foreign players is such a big risk, not if your scouting is good and thorough enough. You just have to get the right ones in.

For me, it’s a tired old, blanket statement.
 

Again, it’s a POV that I’ve stated and elaborated on many times. Foreign players have come in and elevated this league and established themselves as stars and gone on to become renowned for their impact, talent and performances. Some have gone on to become historic figures or even legends for their teams and adored by fans. All the big clubs benefit from that approach… it’s not such a terrible or scary thing.
 

To each their own.

You don’t like it when I’m serious, do you?

Jas, I hope you don't mind me joing the debate, but Dean has already said he favours players who have settled in our league.

you are right, there are many examples of foreign players that have played well for us.....but give us a tangible reason why you thin Alvarez excites you and would be good for us.

I honestly have no idea, one way or the other....but I can't say he excites me, because I have nothing to base it on....but he could be brilliant.

I think the club too, are trying to lower the odds of getting things wrong, but as you know, we have done that with British players....Barkley, Drinkwater etc.

[nick76]

7 minutes ago, weedman said:

Everyone focusing on the £40m mark is ignoring a pretty important detail here. Tammy featured in more than 20 games last season, we play 1 up front and have Watkins.

Why would he move from the club he supports to a club he doesn't for, at best, the same amount of game time?! 

Without Europe we only play 45 odd games a season, even a nice 50/50 split with Watkins plus the odd "throw them both on if we need a goal" matches he's going to struggle to get the same number of games for us as he will for Chelsea. 

It would be a poor use of our budget and a terrible move for him to make. He'd be better off at nearly any other team

Because he’s been completely frozen out by Tuchel and unlikely to get anywhere close to real game time next season at Chelsea.

Great use of our budget to get a quality striker and have two quality strikers to use and both will get great game time.

Great move for him to a team that he knows a coach that loves him, will give him a chance to fight for his shirt, with a club that’s progressing and likely to be fighting for European place and a group of players he is mates with.  A chance to relaunch his career after being frozen out.  Perfect move for him.

Edited July 5, 2021 by nick76

[ThunderPower_14]

The question is whether Watkins can play in a wide forward type of role and whether playing him there and Tammy at Striker is better than Watkins at Striker and someone else on the wing. 

I think playing them both can work, and you really can never have too many genuine goalscorers. I'd be happy with the move, but happy either way. 

[Jas10]

7 minutes ago, TRO said:

who said its £40 mill?.....that's Journo talk.

It’s more likely to be circa that amount and that’s the quoted price in the odd report that has brought up this rumour - that’s all it is. That’s the figure that is written in the headlines… 

If you believe that stuff and those people/reports then you may as well believe that figure and it’s fairly realistic. Chelsea are not going to let him leave on the cheap are they? Why would they?

Ppl are attached to Tammy due to the fact that he has played for us and played a part in our promotion. Had that not happened, there wouldn’t be so much enthusiasm although I am on board with the fact that he is young and scores goals so would still be an attractive option for many a club.

He’s not better or more deadly than Ollie though. The kid plays with stupidly expensive players who compete in and have won the CL. The quality and consistency of service is on another level.

Ollie plays for a team that barely survived relegation the previous season and have Jack Grealish… we saw how much we struggled and how little service Ollie got when Jack was out. But he still bust a gut and worked his socks off and impacted games and still grabbed a goal or made one  for himself here and there. What a player.

I see no reason to be convinced or lean toward thinking that we are actually signing Tammy. It’s an easy link to create and we all know that the media just love to create rumours and speculation, often with no basis or tangibility involved.

If we signed him, we’d be in a stronger position in attack but if it left us short in other areas and prevented us bringing in a key player (such as that DM or CM, even CAM) then it wouldn’t be such good business.

We need to do what’s best for the team/squad overall and we don’t have ulimited funds.

Yes, our owners are wealthy. But they can’t spend willy nilly (wish we could!) because we have restrictions and FFP to contend with and adhere too. We have to be smart about our business.

[Kiwivillan]

18 minutes ago, TRO said:

why can he not play in a 4-3-3 or a 4-4-2 or a 3-4-3 or a 5-3-2 .....it doesn't have to be as rigid as you suggest

Barely any managers or teams play ridiculously diverse systems like that in a league season for good reason. We're not signing 40m striker to play 2 up front the odd time because that's the only justification some posters can make for signing Tammy

[Jas10]

8 minutes ago, TRO said:

Jas, I hope you don't mind me joing the debate, but Dean has already said he favours players who have settled in our league.

you are right, there are many examples of foreign players that have played well for us.....but give us a tangible reason why you thin Alvarez excites you and would be good for us.

I honestly have no idea, one way or the other....but I can't say he excites me, because I have nothing to base it on....but he could be brilliant.

I think the club too, are trying to lower the odds of getting things wrong, but as you know, we have done that with British players....Barkley, Drinkwater etc.

Absolutely not mate, it’s a free forum for everyone. What right do I have to dictate anything?

I am tired though

And I wasn’t just referring to foreign players that played for us, foreign players that have played in this League. You’re Henrys, Bergkamps, Zolas, Ronaldos, Vieiras, Silvas, Toures, Agueros…. and so many, many more. Need I go on?

I’m not focussed on Alvarez, it’s just one example that actually has some basis and slant of reality toward it. It’s a link that has come out that we can comment on rather than any old name or player out there.

I am getting tired of repeating myself

Young, potential star that could go on to become world class if he is managed well. Linked with Real Madrid and Juventus in the past.

We have the two Emis and fellow country men to help him settle. Doug and Wes could help out too.

Wouldn’t it be amazing for little old Villa (as others perceive us, we’re a (sleeping) giant actually ) to have (another) major star on our hands?

A prominent and legitimate figure in Tim Vickery rates him highly and has stated that he is pure class and could be our next Gary Shaw…

[nick76]

6 minutes ago, Jas10 said:

It’s more likely to be circa that amount and that’s the quoted price in the odd report that has brought up this rumour - that’s all it is. That’s the figure that is written in the headlines… 

If you believe that stuff and those people/reports then you may as well believe that figure and it’s fairly realistic. Chelsea are not going to let him leave on the cheap are they? Why would they?

Ppl are attached to Tammy due to the fact that he has played for us and played a part in our promotion. Had that not happened, there wouldn’t be so much enthusiasm although I am on board with the fact that he is young and scores goals so would still be an attractive option for many a club.

He’s not better or more deadly than Ollie though. The kid plays with stupidly expensive players who compete in and have won the CL. The quality and consistency of service is on another level.

Ollie plays for a team that barely survived relegation the previous season and have Jack Grealish… we saw how much we struggled and how little service Ollie got when Jack was out. But he still bust a gut and worked his socks off and impacted games and still grabbed a goal or made one  for himself here and there. What a player.

I see no reason to be convinced or lean toward thinking that we are actually signing Tammy. It’s an easy link to create and we all know that the media just love to create rumours and speculation, often with no basis or tangibility involved.

If we signed him, we’d be in a stronger position in attack but if it left us short in other areas and prevented us bringing in a key player (such as that DM or CM, even CAM) then it wouldn’t be such good business.

We need to do what’s best for the team/squad overall and we don’t have ulimited funds.

Yes, our owners are wealthy. But they can’t spend willy nilly (wish we could!) because we have restrictions and FFP to contend with and adhere too. We have to be smart about our business.

Starting to think from all your long and numerous postings you have as much passion as me about this just in the negative way (Not in the extreme negative, just the “on balance” negative).  

I obviously don’t agree with a lot of your points and have “debunked” (wrong term but you understand my point) most of your talking points but it’s good to have healthy debate

[Jas10]

Just now, nick76 said:

Starting to think from all your long and numerous postings you have as much passion as me about this just in the negative way (Not in the extreme negative, just the “on balance” negative).  

I obviously don’t agree with a lot of your points and have “debunked” (wrong term but you understand my point) most of your talking points but it’s good to have healthy debate

I don’t mate, I would have no problem with Tammy arriving. I have no agenda.

I am concerned with use of our budget and how we utilise it on the whole team and for the whole team’s benefit (upgrade/improve).

I don’t have anywhere near as much passion as you.

No, you most certainly have not debunked anything

I’m knackered mate, taking a break
 

 

[PussEKatt]

Just answer me one simple question.If Watkins gets injured or suspended or hit by a buss,who is going to score our goals ?

Wesley or Davis ?!

[TRO]

36 minutes ago, Jas10 said:

@TRO

I don’t think Ollie and Tammy would play together, not for the majority of the time anyway. Unless you play with 5 defenders (which we won’t, look at Dean’s history), no successful team plays with 2 strikers or CFs in this day and age.

I don’t know where this notion that Dean is suddenly going to change systems, formations and tactics is coming from honestly. There’s no justification or evidence for it. 

You know better and more than me mate. 3 midfielders is the common trend these days and for 2 to play together they have to be world class and it’s still difficult and you can still get overran, overpowered etc.

I don’t see Ollie as an AM, SS or even a WF. Even though he could do a job in those positions, he is not at at “elite” enough level to truly thrive there at PL level - imo. He can be an elite CF though…

Ollie is an outstanding CF, truly an exceptional signing and player for us.

A CAM is a different role that requires a different skill set. Technical proficiency, skill and composure on the ball, exceptional passing range and quality. The ability to almost freely score and create, particularly. Do not underestimate the trequartista

Playing a striker as a CAM is a move suited to a lower, more mediocre team imo. When you are having to fit in players and cover position due to a lack of quality and options. We should not have that problem anymore, we have great players and are bringing more in.

Just my POV, no offence intended.

No Offence taken.....its your point of view, that is valued.

Lets start by saying.....I have no idea, if we will sign Tammy, but if we do, I will trust Dean and I will see the merit of it.

I agree with you, I love Ollie and his overall play.....I am not sure, if I see him as a traditional No 9, even though he has playerd there for us and I have to say, he has done marvellous, injury wise too,playing in that demanding role.

I don't see an issue with Ollie playing with a player like Tammy, I see Ollie as more of an inside forward, playing as a centre forward, like I see Douglas playing No6 but he is a number 8 for me.....its just my opinion, doesn't mean, I am right.

Dean has had to use his players the best he can, as time is progressing and the owners are still as ambitious as they always are, Dean will be given options to fill roles with players more assigned to them by their attributes.

I understand your stance and I agree with you too....We need another goal getter.....It is really too much to expect Ollie to shoulder that burden for such a marathon.

I have always felt Dean likes the 4-3-3......If and I say If we played grealish-Ollie -Tammy in that front three, I would see no issue....with Emi drifting forward on the right from the midfield 3 when we are attacking and funneling back when we are without the ball....but, you would need dominant players in midfield to suffice.

It will be interesting to see if the club go for him, but £40 mill is just a figure that someone has concocted.

I do find it intrigueing how  all these linked players are getting fans in a tizz as to where they will play....It seems like the Snake hasn't left his skin yet......What an example England are showing with the strength of their bench, it could be the winning factor.

We need a strong bench and whose to say our wonderful owners haven't recognised this, and are now ready to take us to the next level.

I don't think we have to worry about these guys, they are not only wealthy, they are wise with it...what a combination?

Edited July 5, 2021 by TRO

[nick76]

3 minutes ago, Jas10 said:

Absolutely not mate, it’s a free forum for everyone. What right do I have to dictate anything?

I am tired though

And I wasn’t just referring to foreign players that played for us, foreign players that have played in this League. You’re Henrys, Bergkamps, Zolas, Ronaldos, Vieiras, Silvas, Toures, Agueros…. and so many, many more. Need I go on?

I’m not focussed on Alvarez, it’s just one example that actually has some basis and slant of reality toward it. It’s a link that has come out that we can comment on rather than any old name or player out there.

I am getting tired of repeating myself

Young, potential star that could go on to become world class if he is managed well. Linked with Real Madrid and Juventus in the past.

We have the two Emis and fellow country men to help him settle. Doug and Wes could help out too.

Wouldn’t it be amazing for little old Villa (as others perceive us, we’re a (sleeping) giant actually ) to have (another) major star on our hands?

A prominent and legitimate figure in Tim Vickery rates him highly and has stated that he is pure class and could be our next Gary Shaw…

I have no issue with him coming in, just not convinced he’s the eggs in basket we can rely on if something we need.  You name so many players that have done well but it’s easy to name at least double that amount of players coming in that have failed.  

Even if not, a new country, language, different football type, away from home, environment etc etc it’ll take time to settle and it maybe 12-24 months before he settles. Very few start so we’ll from the get go.  We need something from the get go, we aren’t at the stage where we can have another 20m unknown. We need to establish these few years then we can experiment.

You say it’s a bit old school thinking but it took Luiz 12 months to settle and he came from Europe, Wes took time to settle…even Buendia mentioned it took him time to settle at Norwich.  
 

If he’s brought in for medium to long term then fine but he doesn’t compare in value to Tammy imo at this stage for us.

[TRO]

17 minutes ago, Kiwivillan said:

Barely any managers or teams play ridiculously diverse systems like that in a league season for good reason. We're not signing 40m striker to play 2 up front the odd time because that's the only justification some posters can make for signing Tammy

come again....what do you mean ridiculously diverse.....I'm talking about options.

Those systems are common place in football.

[nick76]

5 minutes ago, Jas10 said:

I don’t mate, I would have no problem with Tammy arriving. I have no agenda.

I am concerned with use of our budget and how we utilise it on the whole team and for the whole team’s benefit (upgrade/improve).

I don’t have anywhere near as much passion as you.

No, you most certainly have not debunked anything

I’m knackered mate, taking a break
 

 

Enjoy your break, I’m still going

We don’t know what our budget is? It could just be the 32.5m we are bidding for ESR is our last bit of budget  or it could be another 100m.  We can all speculate but we have no clue, we are just guessing.

I think if we get ESR then Tammy is next priority if we have budget.  I think it’s key after all the money we have spent on creativity that we have somebody to put it away.  Just having Ollie is a major risk because anything can happen.  I think bringing in Tammy improves us dramatically.

I have a bit debunked some things.  More stopped people saying facts that aren’t facts but just opinions.

enjoy your break…I’m off to debate more

 

[Kiwivillan]

4 minutes ago, TRO said:

If and I say If we played grealish-Ollie -Tammy in that front three, I

Smith has categorically said he's not moving Watkins to the side of a front 3. Our front 3 will be Grealish Watkins Buendia most likely. Where does Tammy fit in that. Smith could play Traore in front 3 and Buendia 10 but unlikely. Guessing Traore impact sub. Still where does Tammy fit when Smith has said Watkins is leading the line and not getting played wide like he did for Brentford. 

 

[villalad21]

20 hours ago, TRO said:

How on earth can we hope to play 38 arduous games, domestic cup games, with one striker of note.

Watkins has done so with Brentford with more games. The kid is just outrageously fit.

Zero injury record.

These things with players is mostly down to genetics. Some players are simply more injury prone than others and it isn't a coincidence.

We're not even in Europe, will mostly play a game a week. I don't see this as an issue, at all. Splashing 50M on a player because Watkins might get a highly unlikely injury doesn't make sense.

We should focus elsewhere. Like a proper DM.

[Kiwivillan]

4 minutes ago, TRO said:

come again....what do you mean ridiculously diverse.....I'm talking about options.

Those systems are common place in football.

No team during a season shuffles between 442 443 343 532. Present examples. Most managers have a favourite formation they rarely deviate from bar late game to protect lead or switching slightly due to injuries. 

[blunther]

1 minute ago, villalad21 said:

 

Zero injury record.

 

That's great, until he gets injured. It doesn't have to be his body giving up, we're one bad tackle away from having no Ollie for a year or more. We should know only too well after what happened to Wes. We've been here before.

[allani]

4 minutes ago, TRO said:

come again....what do you mean ridiculously diverse.....I'm talking about options.

Those systems are common place in football.

How many times last season did we hear the immortal words: we, have, no, Plan, B.  I maintain that a front 4 of Emi, Jack, Tammy and Ollie (with Bertie coming off the bench) give a manager so many different options but in terms of starting line up, starting formation and from the bench.  So much of a threat going forwards and pretty decent defensively.  Could easily fit into a 4-2-3-1 (without Ollie being pushed wide) and doesn't enforce a 4-4-2.  I think it was @nick76 who published Ollie's heat map last season - which just shows that he isn't playing a traditional centre forward role.  His heat map could be almost identical in a 4-2-3-1.  Although bizarrely I think that if Tammy was playing too, Ollie would see much more of the ball on the edge of the penalty area because he wouldn't be the only one running the channels.  Anyway, when it happens and we beat Man Utd away with Ollie and Tammy scoring the goals @TRO you can join @nick76 and I for our celebratory "I told you so" beer!!!