Tammy Abraham

[nick76]

17 minutes ago, villalad21 said:

Let's agree to disagree buddy.

ok

[Kiwivillan]

4 minutes ago, nick76 said:

literally Mane, Firminio and Salah have played the same position at Liverpool for years

Are you debunking your own need for Tammy arguments

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[nick76]

2 minutes ago, Kiwivillan said:

Are you debunking your own need for Tammy arguments

when I have said Ollie should play wide?  never, so no I'm not debunking myself.

if you are trying to claim nobody else plays then Origi and Jota say hi!!!

Edited July 5, 2021 by nick76

[Kiwivillan]

1 minute ago, nick76 said:

when I have said Ollie should play wide?  never, so no I'm not debunking myself.

Mane Firmino and Salah have played the same position for years. They won the league. They barely rotate. They don't sign 40m cover players in case Ben Mee injures them

[TRO]

26 minutes ago, zab6359 said:

Absolute garbage all it takes is a Ben Mee tackle and Ollie is out for 12 months!

Whilst i'm not advocating spending 50 mil we need a decent alternative option other that Wesley and KD.

I agree.

Its a fair example.....but even so, he looked jaded towards the end of the season.

Its simply too much for one player to burden himself with and if we leave him out for cup games etc....we are limiting ourselves.

[OxfordVillan]

6 minutes ago, nick76 said:

when I have said Ollie should play wide?  never, so no I'm not debunking myself.

if you are trying to claim nobody else plays then Origi and Jota say hi!!!

Origi is a very weak defence of your argument. And quite why anyone would think of moving Ollie from CF to a wide position is beyond me, beyond reason. Watkins at CF is one of the single biggest factors of our successful football, the high and intense pressing of CBs by Watkins being integral to our game, not to mention the boy can score. It’s why there’s rumour of Liverpool interest. 

[CarryOnVilla]

51 pages of the same augments going round and round. 

 

 

[TRO]

1 hour ago, allani said:

How many times last season did we hear the immortal words: we, have, no, Plan, B.  I maintain that a front 4 of Emi, Jack, Tammy and Ollie (with Bertie coming off the bench) give a manager so many different options but in terms of starting line up, starting formation and from the bench.  So much of a threat going forwards and pretty decent defensively.  Could easily fit into a 4-2-3-1 (without Ollie being pushed wide) and doesn't enforce a 4-4-2.  I think it was @nick76 who published Ollie's heat map last season - which just shows that he isn't playing a traditional centre forward role.  His heat map could be almost identical in a 4-2-3-1.  Although bizarrely I think that if Tammy was playing too, Ollie would see much more of the ball on the edge of the penalty area because he wouldn't be the only one running the channels.  Anyway, when it happens and we beat Man Utd away with Ollie and Tammy scoring the goals @TRO you can join @nick76 and I for our celebratory "I told you so" beer!!!

That would be nice.

Equally, how many times did we say last season, that Ollie is running the channels too much, he needs to stay in the box more....He was everywhere.....but strikers are predatory and need to be found in dangerous area's.

Its opinions and we all have one.....its not point scoring, its just saying what you feel....Its just some of us do see the game the same way and some of us don't....hey ho.

[nick76]

35 minutes ago, Kiwivillan said:

Mane Firmino and Salah have played the same position for years. They won the league. They barely rotate. They don't sign 40m cover players in case Ben Mee injures them

They literally signed Diogo Jota for £40m to do what you are saying they dont.  Does Jota rotate with those players? of course

Are you literally trying to punk me now?

Edited July 5, 2021 by nick76

[nick76]

27 minutes ago, OxfordVillan said:

Origi is a very weak defence of your argument.

but Jota isnt!  Plus there were fans on here wanting to buy Origi not so long ago before we got Watkins...he was one of the names being talked about

29 minutes ago, OxfordVillan said:

And quite why anyone would think of moving Ollie from CF to a wide position is beyond me, beyond reason.

where have I said that? I havent said I would move Ollie wide

29 minutes ago, OxfordVillan said:

Watkins at CF is one of the single biggest factors of our successful football, the high and intense pressing of CBs by Watkins being integral to our game, not to mention the boy can score. It’s why there’s rumour of Liverpool interest. 

Something which we agree on, if you look at all my comments I am a massive fan of Ollie.

 

It's just weird that so many comments from so many dont understand my argument for Tammy yet we are up to 51 pages and I reckon that a third of those are my comments yet people keep portraying my views wrong, asserting views that I dont have, creating views that arent relevant.

My view is that we need two top quality strikers if we want to go through a season and successfully attain a European place.  Ollie is magnificant and should be the one that holds the shirt.  Tammy is great and while in parts similar is materially different to give us options.  Ollie is the great all rounder, Tammy is the predator/goals scorer.  We have many games this season we may have injuries, suspensions, form issues, tactic changes and many other things and thus we need two strikers that can provide that otherwise we will have loads of creative players but may struggle to have somebody put those chances away for whatever reason.  We actually seen it last season where Ollie was knackered, or when he went on one of his two long goal droughts, or when we were chasing a game and need to throw another striker on the pitch or when Ollie was struggling a bit and the team needed something different or whatever.

Ollie is one of the best things to come to Villa in the last few years.  Bringing in Tammy doesnt mean badness for Ollie.  If anything they will learn from each and make each other better, given Dean options and make Villa stronger.  

[nick76]

26 minutes ago, CarryOnVilla said:

51 pages of the same augments going round and round. 
 

Not sure your point though keep doing this.  You are right but if you dont like it why bother to read this thread, nobody is forcing you.  Most threads are like this just this has got 51 pages in a short space of time...but most player threads are the same to various levels.  ESR is either we can get him, no way Arsenal will sell or taking the pee out of Arsenal fans...the JWP is mostly they wont sell him...Luiz was whether Man City would take him back for most of the time....Jack's is about whether Man City will take him or about not being picked for England.  They are all the same, circular and people for or against something.

[CarryOnVilla]

2 minutes ago, nick76 said:

Not sure your point though keep doing this.  You are right but if you dont like it why bother to read this thread, nobody is forcing you.  Most threads are like this just this has got 51 pages in a short space of time...but most player threads are the same to various levels.  ESR is either we can get him, no way Arsenal will sell or taking the pee out of Arsenal fans...the JWP is mostly they wont sell him...Luiz was whether Man City would take him back for most of the time....Jack's is about whether Man City will take him or about not being picked for England.  They are all the same, circular and people for or against something.

You’ve stated your case for Tammy to come an exhausting amount of times… what more do you need from us? 
 

“Yes we need Tammy, good point” congratulations

 

[nick76]

7 minutes ago, CarryOnVilla said:

You’ve stated your case for Tammy to come an exhausting amount of times… what more do you need from us? 

 

Well as you can see from my comment above people keep getting my position wrong so obviously they havent understood my case properly so I'm more than happy to reiterate   I feel I still have a good couple of thousand pages left in me...

Also I dont see in the guidelines that I am limited to my debating constantly on this website

Edited July 5, 2021 by nick76

[TRO]

1 hour ago, nick76 said:

Why do we?  most players when they go to another club only really every play one position.  literally Mane, Firminio and Salah have played the same position at Liverpool for years

Great most of them in the Dutch league and then some 3 or 4 years ago at Lyon when played out of position...great! woohoo!  I'm sure if he had been available as a striker we would've brought him   Amazes me that somebody mentions playing Ollie out of position and the earth is scorned but playing Traore out of position is fine.  I'm not advocating playing Ollie out of position but I'm also not interested playing Traore out of position...he's not a striker and some stats primarily from 6/7 years ago in a Dutch league followed by only some minutes in the French league isnt going to convince me.  We have to stop being amateurish and understand that having two top quality strikers for a European place challenging team is not unreasonable.

Yep.

[allani]

1 hour ago, OxfordVillan said:

Origi is a very weak defence of your argument. And quite why anyone would think of moving Ollie from CF to a wide position is beyond me, beyond reason. Watkins at CF is one of the single biggest factors of our successful football, the high and intense pressing of CBs by Watkins being integral to our game, not to mention the boy can score. It’s why there’s rumour of Liverpool interest. 

Can you name one poster who has said that Tammy would be a good signing who has proposed moving Ollie to play on the wing?  Anyone will do.  This keeps coming up again and again and again.  We don't play 4-4-2 and Ollie shouldn't be on the left wing.  Yet not one person who has suggested that signing Tammy would be a good deal has proposed moving Ollie to play on the wing and almost all of us have said it would be 4-2-3-1(ish). 

I HAVE said that if Ollie plays in the CF role than his natural tendency is to drift left and run the channel - the heat map of his involvement last season as shared by @nick76 previously on this thread proves this.  When he drifts left (because he is going to unless we train it out of him - in which case he loses half his effectiveness) then that allows Jack to either try and go wider to overlap or drift inside.  But it also means Tammy can get himself on the centre circle waiting for a cross.  But that is NOTHING like saying that Ollie should be moved to play on the left wing.  There have been several proposals about how Jack, Emi, Ollie and Tammy COULD fit in the same side.  None of them mention 4-4-2 and none of them mention playing Ollie on the left wing.  Yet almost every counter argument says that no-one plays 4-4-2 anymore and we'd be mad to start Ollie down the left.  Which kind of makes it irrelevant as a counter-argument because its arguing against something different to what has been said.  It's a bit like having a discussion about deciding whether to go to Italy on holiday or stay in the UK and people saying that we should stay in the UK because they don't speak French.

If people are going to raise objections to the proposal (which is fine) then please do read and understand what has been suggested before dismissing it.  I've only had one person come back with a detailed counter-argument explaining why they don't think that those 4 would work together.  He raised plenty of good points about his concerns, explained why he thought we needed a different type of player to join that quartet and having read his post I understood why he had those views and why we disagreed with each other.  Which is fine and the whole point of a forum like this.

[allani]

2 hours ago, Kiwivillan said:

Mane Firmino and Salah have played the same position for years. They won the league. They barely rotate. They don't sign 40m cover players in case Ben Mee injures them

Jota?

[allani]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

That would be nice.

Equally, how many times did we say last season, that Ollie is running the channels too much, he needs to stay in the box more....He was everywhere.....but strikers are predatory and need to be found in dangerous area's.

Its opinions and we all have one.....its not point scoring, its just saying what you feel....Its just some of us do see the game the same way and some of us don't....hey ho.

Agreed.  I think Ollie will score a lot more when we are not so dependent on him running the channels.  He'll still do it - it is a massive part of his game and why he is successful.  But with good options around him he can be more selective about where he goes and when.  Emi is a big part of that - suddenly we have two slightly deeper options to pick out before resorting to playing a longer ball for Ollie to chase because Jack isn't available.  A good fourth option will make that even better - whoever that may be.  I think Jack and Emi will be playing far more slide balls for him to run onto that don't involve him straying outside the "tram lines" of the penalty box.  And when he does go wider then hopefully we will have another person to fill that more central area that he has just vacated, whether that is Tammy or someone else altogether.

[ellebonnie]

So we all want us to progress every year and this coming one our aim is Europe but we are going to close on the top 6 with 1 proven striker. Yeah right!! If we are to believe nswe intentions and I do then I believe they believe a squad needs to be built to do that and they are going about doing that. We need another striker and Tammy ticks the boxes. We need to start to thinking big time like our owners and let them assemble a squad that’s needed.Tammy is perfect for our development and to help us onto our next phase. Think squad !! 

[Paul33]

5 hours ago, nick76 said:

This is definitely trolling. Tammy has played, performed and proved himself at the top end of the PL.  Not even going to comment on the "potential" because he's already proven but at 23 still has room to grow but even if he doesnt he's a top level PL striker.

I'm not convinced your response was too serious was it?

If we sign Tammy then I'll jump highest if he scores. I don't dislike the guy, I just don't believe he is a proven player at this level which is a view taken not only by some past managers but by a lot of Chelsea fans. People claim he banged in lots of goals last season and that equals proof but at least half of those goals were in cup games against weakened or lower division sides against whom he is a proven striker.

£20M is a gamble worth taking, £40M is "proven premier striker" money and Tammy is not that and I think Villa know that !

Edited July 5, 2021 by Paul33

[gwi1890]

3 hours ago, nick76 said:

Why do we?  most players when they go to another club only really every play one position.  literally Mane, Firminio and Salah have played the same position at Liverpool for years

Great most of them in the Dutch league and then some 3 or 4 years ago at Lyon when played out of position...great! woohoo!  I'm sure if he had been available as a striker we would've brought him   Amazes me that somebody mentions playing Ollie out of position and the earth is scorned but playing Traore out of position is fine.  I'm not advocating playing Ollie out of position but I'm also not interested playing Traore out of position...he's not a striker and some stats primarily from 6/7 years ago in a Dutch league followed by only some minutes in the French league isnt going to convince me.  We have to stop being amateurish and understand that having two top quality strikers for a European place challenging team is not unreasonable.

Having 2 quality strikers isn’t unreasonable, but knocking Traore for scoring in a lesser league is like knocking Tammy for scoring most of his goals in the championship.