Team shape, tactics and personnel

[Marka Ragnos]

1 hour ago, nick76 said:

Can’t agree.  There is little cohesion in this team.  The pattern you are seeing is probably down to having no options or game plan moving forward, so with no options the defence just pass it to one another.  That’s not game play or points to cohesion.  It’s one of the biggest issues I have that we don’t look like we have cohesion in the team, they don’t have a way of playing, know where to move for each other.  It sometimes feels like it’s the first time they have played together.

Fair enough, mate. I think I'm just seeing different aspects of the current play, but I do hear what you're saying and can certainly see how the options sometimes seem absent. But I do also see a lot of symmetry and spacing and holding of clear geometries that I guess you and some others don't -- yet the issue for me is that it all has the look of a development phase among players who still are getting familiar with one another. To me it looks how people look when they're learning to ski. They get the alignments right, but there's no fluidity. It feels overly labored and too predictable. Under Smith, I feel like we often had a simpler approach of basically relying on Jack, and often, that worked better than what we're seeing now. My hope is that your sense of the cohesion will fade as the players get more comfortable and intuitive. There have been a lot of changes. But some of this goes beyond the manager's reach. How can a manager affect a player's knowledge of his teammates' split-second habits and moves? Doesn't that take some time and experience together -- as well as "magic" on the ball? 

Edited August 17, 2022 by Marka Ragnos

[nick76]

8 minutes ago, Marka Ragnos said:

Fair enough, mate. I think I'm just seeing different aspects of the current play, but I do hear what you're saying and can certainly see how the options sometimes seem absent. But I do also see a lot of symmetry and spacing and holding of clear geometries that I guess you and some others don't -- yet the issue for me is that it all has the look of a development phase among players who still are getting familiar with one another. To me it looks how people look when they're learning to ski. They get the alignments right, but there's no fluidity. It feels overly labored and too predictable. Under Smith, I feel like we often had a simpler approach of basically relying on Jack, and often, that worked better than what we're seeing now. My hope is that your sense of the cohesion will fade as the players get more comfortable and intuitive. There have been a lot of changes. But some of this goes beyond the manager's reach. How can a manager affect a player's knowledge of his teammates' split-second habits and moves? Doesn't that take some time and experience together -- as well as "magic" on the ball? 

I just don’t see improvement over his tenure, in fact we have probably regressed.  Most of these new players came in January so have had now 7/8 months together and as the second half of the season wore on we got worse, not only the performances but 9 points in 11 games.  

The big preseason was supposed to be a bonding session, the two key new players were there for the start of that so everything had gone swimmingly from that point of view but 2 games in they still look like there is no cohesion there imo, I just don’t see it.

I don’t see where the coaching is benefiting the team.  A good coach would get a lot more out of this talent in the squad.

Edited August 17, 2022 by nick76

[ChesterDad]

44 minutes ago, nick76 said:

I just don’t see improvement over his tenure, in fact we have probably regressed.  Most of these new players came in January so have had now 7/8 months together and as the second half of the season wore on we got worse, not only the performances but 9 points in 11 games.  

The big preseason was supposed to be a bonding session, the two key new players were there for the start of that so everything had gone swimmingly from that point of view but 2 games in they still look like there is no cohesion there imo, I just don’t see it.

I don’t see where the coaching is benefiting the team.  A good coach would get a lot more out of this talent in the squad.

Absolutely this - I genuinely believe that this squad is under performing. I really wanted SG to do well here, hopefully this will prove to be the case, I just for the life of me can’t see this happening.

[Tomaszk]

6 hours ago, Keyblade said:

Next 3 games will be very telling imo. 2 teams that are roughly around our level and Arsenal. If we compete well it'll give me hope.

No doubt in my mind if we play as we have, it's three losses, no goals and a real grim season ahead. Basically a race to see when Purslow blinks and sacks Gerrard.

[duke313]

Just had a look at the average positions vs. Everton on SofaScore. 

Coutinho was way too deep, near the centre-circle, Buendia was much closer to the forwards.

[Zatman]

Our best 11 should not have McGinn or Coutinho starting yet one person believes they should be untouchables

[duke313]

5 minutes ago, Zatman said:

Our best 11 should not have McGinn or Coutinho starting yet one person believes they should be untouchables

But if Coutinho was playing a lot closer to the forwards rather than deep in midfield, he'd be a lot more effective.

[Zatman]

5 minutes ago, duke313 said:

But if Coutinho was playing a lot closer to the forwards rather than deep in midfield, he'd be a lot more effective.

We need a midfielder that can pass though to get him the ball. Luiz should be starting over McGinn

[Rightdm00]

2 hours ago, duke313 said:

Just had a look at the average positions vs. Everton on SofaScore. 

Coutinho was way too deep, near the centre-circle, Buendia was much closer to the forwards.

Saw that as well when I did a rewatch. McGinn and Ramsey are both high up supporting their respective fullback. It leaves Kamara and Coutinho as the only 2 midfielder helping play out the back.  We will struggle with any team in a low block this season. You can't breakdown the middle of the pitch with 2 players and everyone else jammed out wide. 

 

[duke313]

29 minutes ago, Rightdm00 said:

Saw that as well when I did a rewatch. McGinn and Ramsey are both high up supporting their respective fullback. It leaves Kamara and Coutinho as the only 2 midfielder helping play out the back.  We will struggle with any team in a low block this season. You can't breakdown the middle of the pitch with 2 players and everyone else jammed out wide. 

 

Low block teams should be Gerrard’s bread and butter, he faced them every week in Scotland.

[daft]

40 minutes ago, Rightdm00 said:

Saw that as well when I did a rewatch. McGinn and Ramsey are both high up supporting their respective fullback. It leaves Kamara and Coutinho as the only 2 midfielder helping play out the back.  We will struggle with any team in a low block this season. You can't breakdown the middle of the pitch with 2 players and everyone else jammed out wide. 

 

It all depends in where the opponent packs their players. 

It doesn't really serve to try and break them down centrally if the sit narrow, conceding space down the flanks. 

Yes, you can possibly reverse your FBs and hope to create overloads centrally, but if they are compact, with little space to between the lines to exploit, you're better off overloading the wings, hoping to pull defenders out of the line with movement, to exploit with balls in behind or by cutting back across the box IMO.

[Keyblade]

It's not like we changed tactics or much of the personnel when Buendia came on. I think Coutinho made the choice to drop deeper, for whatever reason.

[ejs1111]

1 minute ago, Keyblade said:

It's not like we changed tactics or much of the personnel when Buendia came on. I think Coutinho made the choice to drop deeper, for whatever reason.

Agreed.

He dropped deeper because JJ and SJM kept making forward runs and vacating the midfield.  This problem will never be resolved until we have a ball control no8 in the midfield.  SG persists with JJ and SJM who are the same type of player, progressive dribbler/runners.  We either have to pull our back line up to compress the space (tactical suicide), play Luiz, or sign better version of Luiz and bench one of JJ/SJM.  Right now our midfield just doesn't have balance.

[Rightdm00]

5 minutes ago, duke313 said:

Low block teams should be Gerrard’s bread and butter, he faced them every week in Scotland.

You would think so. Another way to break down low blocks is to press on loss of possession but we don't do a great job of that either.

Honestly, I would be far more patient with Steven if I could figure out what our preferred style of play looks like. I know Rangers were a high tempo, high press team under him. It seems like he has abandoned that for the most part. Now if I had to describe us to a neutral I would struggle to explain our setup. Suicidally high fullbacks, that's all I got. 

[Indigo]

17 minutes ago, Keyblade said:

It's not like we changed tactics or much of the personnel when Buendia came on. I think Coutinho made the choice to drop deeper, for whatever reason.

For whatever reason we're far more static with Coutinho there. He drops deep and it just feels like there's little movement there for him. Whether that's an issue with him or the others I'm not sure, but it was night and day when Buendia came out the pitch. There was a tempo to the play, and Digne in particular came to life a bit by linking up with him, playing little 1-2s etc. I find it strange.

[Keyblade]

Just now, Indigo said:

For whatever reason we're far more static with Coutinho there. He drops deep and it just feels like there's little movement there for him. Whether that's an issue with him or the others I'm not sure, but it was night and day when Buendia came out the pitch. There was a tempo to the play, and Digne in particular came to life a bit by linking up with him, playing little 1-2s etc. I find it strange.

I think he struggles when the onus is just on him to create. He's not the same player he was a t Liverpool. Doesn't get around the pitch as quickly. I think if he plays he needs to play with Buendia, and stay higher up the pitch. Just tuck in behind Ollie. He can still play little 1-2's with our forwards and Buendia and won't need to drop deep. Also Luiz has to play to get the ball to them. Pretty much all our best moved last season started with Luiz playing the ball into the feet of Coutinho or Buendia.

[jim]

1 hour ago, duke313 said:

Low block teams should be Gerrard’s bread and butter, he faced them every week in Scotland.

Until about a week ago I thought a low block was lifting your knee up when someone goes to kick you in the balls.

Everyday’s a school day!

[Xela]

4 minutes ago, jim said:

Until about a week ago I thought a low block was lifting your knee up when someone goes to kick you in the balls.

Everyday’s a school day!

You need a high press to stop a low block and make sure you never get kicked in the double pivots. 

[Marka Ragnos]

1 hour ago, daft said:

It all depends in where the opponent packs their players. 

It doesn't really serve to try and break them down centrally if the sit narrow, conceding space down the flanks. 

Yes, you can possibly reverse your FBs and hope to create overloads centrally, but if they are compact, with little space to between the lines to exploit, you're better off overloading the wings, hoping to pull defenders out of the line with movement, to exploit with balls in behind or by cutting back across the box IMO.

 Yes, this. It always has to be a dynamic approach  trying a variety of tactics to exhaust the defenders' minds -- effective low blocks require such intense, sustained levels of mental focus, after all -- and be ready to jump all over the inevitable, costly errors by defenders. Being unpredictable is often necessary.

29 minutes ago, Xela said:

You need a high press to stop a low block and make sure you never get kicked in the double pivots. 

But not just any high press. A clever, flexible, tricky, relentlessly intense high press.

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

Wonder if Critchley having more time with everyone will see some more cohesion and tweaking to systems?

Bare inind he missed the bulk of pre season.