Team shape, tactics and personnel

[Tomaszk]

21 minutes ago, CVByrne said:

I can't see why we would play 3 at the back, our defensive record is very good under Gerrard. We're 7th best and we'd be better if we had a quality CDM there to stop the numerous goals we concede in transition. 

Because we don't control games if Buendia isn't playing.

[CVByrne]

56 minutes ago, MrBlack said:

As stated above, the shift isn't that great. You are effectively just asking your CDM to stay at the back, instead of venturing forward on occasion when we havent got the ball.... but even a centre back will do that occasionally. 

When the 6 is Nakamba, he sits much deeper than Luiz, so is even closer to a 3 at the back.

I agree, we don't need to switch to 3 at the back, just need a really good 6 that knows how to play that role inside out. When to sit, when to cover a wing back, how to intercept through balls, how to tackle, how to track a man, to be able to win a long ball in the air, and how to find a simple pass to the 2 8s sitting in front of him.

At the moment,  our 6 options can all do some of the above, albeit to varying degrees, but none of them can do all of it to the standard required, consistently.

Get that position sorted and we look miles better.

This isn't true though. The 2 midfielders in front of the back three aren't two 8s they're usually two 6s or at least a 6 and a hybrid 6/8. 

The wide CBs cover for the wing backs in the system, while our system has the 8s cover for the FBs. In attack it's more a 3 2 5 where our system is a 2 3 5 in attack. So the ability for one of the 3 to get involved in the attack is higher with our system is higher than in the 3 at the back system. 

Finally Conte's way of playing the 3 at the back system is for lightening quick counter attacking and that's a big system change for how we play. 

So, the two systems are very different

Edited May 18, 2022 by CVByrne
typo on CBs vs FBs

[MrBlack]

25 minutes ago, CVByrne said:

This isn't true though. The 2 midfielders in front of the back three aren't two 8s they're usually two 6s or at least a 6 and a hybrid 6/8. 

The wide CBs cover for the wing backs in the system, while our system has the 8s cover for the CBs. In attack it's more a 3 2 5 where our system is a 2 3 5 in attack. So the ability for one of the 3 to get involved in the attack is higher with our system is higher than in the 3 at the back system. 

Finally Conte's way of playing the 3 at the back system is for lightening quick counter attacking and that's a big system change for how we play. 

So, the two systems are very different

But our 8's, in covering the wing backs,  are playing a more 6/8 hybrid role. Its a big reason McGinn isn't very good in our system. He isn't a 6 of any kind, can't cover for a wingback, and doesn't really know what to do with the ball in that area of the pitch.

Agree that the Conte way of playing is completely different, but I was thinking about us shifting to a back 3, without adopting a counter attacking approach, as that is completely pointless with the players we have.

In any case, I think we agree that a back 3 isn't for us, however we've viewing the style. 

And as such, the dedicated number 6 role is one we need to absolutely nail.

[CVByrne]

Sorry that was a typo, our 8s cover our full backs, not CBs. While in a back three the wide CBs cover that space and the two midfielders and central CB cover centre areas. 

[Villarocker]

Out of the current squad, which players do you think Gerrard sees as starting eleven for him next season? I think he's probably happy to start:

Martinez, Cash, Digne, McGinn, Ramsey, Coutinho and, Watkins.

I think that he will consider two new centre backs, a defensive midfielder and another striker as his priority signings - all to go into the starting lineup. 

[ferguson1]

1 minute ago, Villarocker said:

Out of the current squad, which players do you think Gerrard sees as starting eleven for him next season? I think he's probably happy to start:

Martinez, Cash, Digne, McGinn, Ramsey, Coutinho and, Watkins.

I think that he will consider two new centre backs, a defensive midfielder and another striker as his priority signings - all to go into the starting lineup. 

Honestly can’t see him upgrading on Mings this summer and I think he’ll perhaps try and get Buendia/Coutinho in the side together more next season. 

[HKP90]

1 hour ago, Villarocker said:

Out of the current squad, which players do you think Gerrard sees as starting eleven for him next season? I think he's probably happy to start:

Martinez, Cash, Digne, McGinn, Ramsey, Coutinho and, Watkins.

I think that he will consider two new centre backs, a defensive midfielder and another striker as his priority signings - all to go into the starting lineup. 

Watkins a shoe in based on comments in his interview. I think your list is bang on actually.

[CVByrne]

So what way were we setting up in possession last night? 

From what I saw Luiz dropped into the central CB role and Mings and Chambers split wide of him. On TV I couldn't see how the rest of the team were set up, did we then have a 4 man  next line of Digne, JJ, McGinn, Cash? or did one of the 10s drop deeper? 

Not a game where Burnley were going to press us in possession. I think it was a tweak to the way we set up as a "response" to how Newcastle and Watford packed the central areas to nullify our two 10s. It left space out wide and now we've in form Digne / Cash we can attack from those spaces more, we had more balls direct to wide spaces.

Anyone who was at the game shed some light?

[VillaParkAvenue]

14 minutes ago, CVByrne said:

So what way were we setting up in possession last night? 

From what I saw Luiz dropped into the central CB role and Mings and Chambers split wide of him. On TV I couldn't see how the rest of the team were set up, did we then have a 4 man  next line of Digne, JJ, McGinn, Cash? or did one of the 10s drop deeper? 

Not a game where Burnley were going to press us in possession. I think it was a tweak to the way we set up as a "response" to how Newcastle and Watford packed the central areas to nullify our two 10s. It left space out wide and now we've in form Digne / Cash we can attack from those spaces more, we had more balls direct to wide spaces.

Anyone who was at the game shed some light?

Yeah formation yesterday was a bit of a mystery seen from the tv. Some apps showed McGinn as one of the 10s and his average pitch position was further up than not only Ramsey but further than Chuk as well. Buendia defended pretty deep.

[tinker]

Burnley let us have the ball outside of the box knowing Pope would likely save any shots from out there. We was confined to high balls, crosses, in from the full backs, Burnley just defended them well. 

We had the occasional long ball in on counters , which we eventually scored from. 

Dreadful football really , especially with the players we have. Bertie had the best chance from a header for us , Pope pulled off a world class save but Ming's blocks a shot that was into an open goal as well.

We are so one dimensional and simple to play against , I can see a DM helping us defensively but we look clueless going forward, slow and devoid of any ideas. 

It going to take a major turn around for us to improve next season and if I'm honest I see big holes in Gerrard and his back room teams ideas and tactics.

It's stick or bust time for us, my feeling is Gerrard will be gone by December.  

[duke313]

3 minutes ago, tinker said:

Burnley let us have the ball outside of the box knowing Pope would likely save any shots from out there. We was confined to high balls, crosses, in from the full backs, Burnley just defended them well. 

We had the occasional long ball in on counters , which we eventually scored from. 

Dreadful football really , especially with the players we have. Bertie had the best chance from a header for us , Pope pulled off a world class save but Ming's blocks a shot that was into an open goal as well.

We are so one dimensional and simple to play against , I can see a DM helping us defensively but we look clueless going forward, slow and devoid of any ideas. 

It going to take a major turn around for us to improve next season and if I'm honest I see big holes in Gerrard and his back room teams ideas and tactics.

It's stick or bust time for us, my feeling is Gerrard will be gone by December.  

We would have won that by 3 or 4 goals if Pope hadn’t been playing like prime Buffon.

[Blasterpocket68]

We needed to move the ball a lot quicker last night in order to move Burnley around and out of shape . We didn’t really achieve this  and given the players we had on the pitch that is disappointing. Pope did make some great saves we didn’t create enough clear cut chances. 

[VillaParkAvenue]

8 minutes ago, tinker said:

Burnley let us have the ball outside of the box knowing Pope would likely save any shots from out there. We was confined to high balls, crosses, in from the full backs, Burnley just defended them well. 

We had the occasional long ball in on counters , which we eventually scored from. 

Dreadful football really , especially with the players we have. Bertie had the best chance from a header for us , Pope pulled off a world class save but Ming's blocks a shot that was into an open goal as well.

We are so one dimensional and simple to play against , I can see a DM helping us defensively but we look clueless going forward, slow and devoid of any ideas. 

It going to take a major turn around for us to improve next season and if I'm honest I see big holes in Gerrard and his back room teams ideas and tactics.

It's stick or bust time for us, my feeling is Gerrard will be gone by December.  

That’s how I saw it too, Burnley were happy to let us have the ball about 5 yards outside their box. We seem very dedicated to playing our way through centrally with short passes, no matter how packed that part of the pitch is. Like trying to thread a needle.

Villa not getting that many quality chances is shown by the xG being relatively low, 1.00. Getting a great DM would help us defensively and could also result in us having more possession further up the pitch, but it won’t give us a more varied attack or help us create better chances.

[CVByrne]

19 minutes ago, VillaParkAvenue said:

If Gerrard decides to play both Coutinho and Buendia as 10s, they will have to be reliable goal scorers as well. Personally I believe we need to make more runs and stretch defences, while having two number 10s mainly looking to play through balls risk being a bit of a waste.

I think if we have two things we'll see better output from Coutinho and Buendia in 10. Those are the full backs posing a serious threat (which they now do) and the 8s more involved in attack (which requires the right CDM). I also think we should think about swapping sides for McGinn and JJ so they can whip in crosses.

If we do that and learn more pass and move work I think we can score a lot more goals. I think JJ, Coutinho & Buendia have the close control and are good finishers that they can be scoring. McGinn is a good finisher too. If we had the Suarez of last season in there we could see a big improvement in goals.

[AV82]

There's no guarantee that any signings we make are gonna hit the ground running. Look at Leon Bailey. The fact that Gerrard can't squeeze more out of this team with the likes of Ramsey, McGinn, Coutinho, Buendia and Ings to name a few is a problem. If we have a poor start next year then we're back to square 1 and down another 100m.

[rodders0223]

We have a back four and a pivot then 5 players that don't have any kind of fluidity what so ever.

Mcginn. Hopefully you rifle one in or do a great long pass.

JJ. Hopefully you run through and burst past the line.

The rest of them. No link up play. No patterns. No nothing.

[TRO]

1 hour ago, Tomaszk said:

Ah I thought you meant bit earlier. Palace, Brighton, Leicester wins.

We have had good games for sure!

IMO it's been poor more often than not, and it is nearly all down to the manager's refusal to use any wingers or width in advanced positions. The forwards and 10s have no one to play off and it all gets clogged up centrally.

Here's to it clicking more often than not next season - new signings should help providing they're the right purchases.

The full backs are not playing to their full attacking potential, while we have an indifferent unbalanced midfield.

I am not saying you are wrong by the way......but what was our results like when we did play with wingers.

We have scored more goals than 5 teams above us......but lost 18 games....we have scored 6 goals less than Arsenal in 5th place.....4 teams above us have  higher negative goal difference.

My suggestion is, our biggest problem is, we can't control the play, well enough.

18 games lost is touching on relegation territory.....and 6 games won at Home is another indicator of lack of game control.

We either storm teams or we get stormed....and thats how we more or less get our points.

We have too many players up and down in form and sadly, some only look and appraise the up's, without due dillegence on the downs.

SG has a problem with this, just like the last Manager did and in my opinion, probably like an alternative manager would.

Folk talk up Eddie Howe.....but look who ( what type) he has brought in, no real technical world beaters, but he had won one game before the January window opened.....and those signings was not highly technical types.

Our problems reach much further than swapping wingers for attacking full backs and like you I hope SG fixes it in the summer.

[Zatman]

37 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

I’ve noticed when playing against a team we need to break down the fans aren’t patient with us moving it around waiting for an opening. Eventually the moans and groans get louder and the players try to force it and in most cases lose it.  

These are the games actually we need have wide players to stretch the opposition 

[Villa_Vids]

1 hour ago, Zatman said:

These are the games actually we need have wide players to stretch the opposition 

The full backs are providing the width. That is not the major problem with our side imo.

[Zatman]

8 minutes ago, Villa_Vids said:

The full backs are providing the width. That is not the major problem with our side imo.

Makes us too predictable though