bannedfromHandV Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 21 minutes ago, limpid said: It's worth reading the last few pages. We have to be ready by March. We can't gamble on promotion as it will already be too late by then. I think an announcement is unlikely. If we submit our forecast in March, the FL only has until the end of season to decide on whether we pass or not. If we tell them the plan now, they might find a way to block anything that we try. Am I missing something? Why are people still fretting? If we do 'fail' FFP we get fined, our new owners can easily afford the fine and carry on regardless. I must be missing something, someone enlighten me. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
limpid Posted August 10, 2018 Administrator Share Posted August 10, 2018 4 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said: I must be missing something, someone enlighten me. You are. Read the last few pages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheStagMan Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 points deduction, transfer embargo, expulsion from the EFL (unlikely) etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 So how did QPR avoid all those things and end up with just a fine? All due respect, this goes into the same category as GDPR for me, it's purposely ambiguous and convoluted with no defined outcome so that a bunch of people can justify their own sense of self-importance and the career choices they have made. Just as no firm is going to be fined millions and millions of pounds for keeping George Smith's data on file when he asked for it to be removed (GDPR), we will not be kicked out of the EFL for not adhering to FFP. It's scaremongering bullshit. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Albrighton Posted August 10, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted August 10, 2018 Just now, bannedfromHandV said: So how did QPR avoid all those things and end up with just a fine? All due respect, this goes into the same category as GDPR for me, it's purposely ambiguous and convoluted with no defined outcome so that a bunch of people can justify their own sense of self-importance and the career choices they have made. Just as no firm is going to be fined millions and millions of pounds for keeping George Smith's data on file when he asked for it to be removed (GDPR), we will not be kicked out of the EFL for not adhering to FFP. It's scaremongering bullshit. They could only do so much with QPR, under new rules they can be much stricter, points deduction etc. Of course, we don’t know for certain that they would do that if Villa failed FFP. I guess when people say “gamble” it would be that if the club hasn’t got it’s finances in order by March, they’re hoping the football league wouldn’t punish the club with anything other than a fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul1984 Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 5 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said: So how did QPR avoid all those things and end up with just a fine? All due respect, this goes into the same category as GDPR for me, it's purposely ambiguous and convoluted with no defined outcome so that a bunch of people can justify their own sense of self-importance and the career choices they have made. Just as no firm is going to be fined millions and millions of pounds for keeping George Smith's data on file when he asked for it to be removed (GDPR), we will not be kicked out of the EFL for not adhering to FFP. It's scaremongering bullshit. Because they changed the rules since the QPR violation 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ender4 Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 6 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said: So how did QPR avoid all those things and end up with just a fine? Read the last 20 pages of this thread. Its all been discussed in detail including QPR and various other clubs. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Made In Aston Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 I really don't get FFP. They want clubs to be able to prove they can pay their bills and afford transfer fees,but won't let owners cover it. If the owners put £200m in a ring fenced villa account and signed a legal document saying this money was exclusively for the club and said that they wouldn't withdraw it, why would this be a problem for the EFL?! It really doesn't make sense that owners are not allowed to be an income stream under these circumstances. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeyjavfc Posted August 10, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted August 10, 2018 1 hour ago, Made In Aston said: I really don't get FFP. They want clubs to be able to prove they can pay their bills and afford transfer fees,but won't let owners cover it. If the owners put £200m in a ring fenced villa account and signed a legal document saying this money was exclusively for the club and said that they wouldn't withdraw it, why would this be a problem for the EFL?! It really doesn't make sense that owners are not allowed to be an income stream under these circumstances. It doesn’t make sense really - they want clubs to be self-sustaining businesses, which completely ignores the fact that football clubs have only been seen as profit-making businesses in the last 30 years or so. In years gone by football clubs were just that: CLUBS, and routinely survived off the generosity of their members and fan donations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjackle Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 I can't see any block to promotion or points deduction being resolved before a new season starts due to the legal challenge from the club that would follow. The wording is vague and opens it up to appeal. The QPR challenge took years and only ended because they settled. On that basis I think its an unlikely outcome for any club where it affects promotion or relegation. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeyjavfc Posted August 10, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted August 10, 2018 11 minutes ago, maxjackle said: I can't see any block to promotion or points deduction being resolved before a new season starts due to the legal challenge from the club that would follow. The wording is vague and opens it up to appeal. The QPR challenge took years and only ended because they settled. On that basis I think its an unlikely outcome for any club where it affects promotion or relegation. The difference is that a fine is easily blocked or deferred by the club by refusing to pay; a points deduction is enacted by the EFL and is basically impossible to block in the short term if that’s what the EFL want to do. Any successful appeal would be too late and would only overturn the points deduction retroactivity and I have no idea how that would work: extra points awarded in a later season?? The EFL would have serious balls to do a points deduction though because if they lost an appeal then the damages would run over £100m for missed promotion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platt Ain’t Fat Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 (edited) Am I right in thinking things like stadium sponsorship the benchmark is that it has to represent fair market value? If so does Man City’s Etihad deal of 10 years ago not set that precedent. Also is there anything to stop the new owners transferring the entire playing staff wage burden to one of the cement companies for example. I.e “all of our players work for Acme Cement” I’m sure there is mind. Edited August 10, 2018 by Platt Ain’t Fat 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hooter Posted August 10, 2018 Visiting Supporter Share Posted August 10, 2018 38 minutes ago, mikeyjavfc said: The difference is that a fine is easily blocked or deferred by the club by refusing to pay; a points deduction is enacted by the EFL and is basically impossible to block in the short term if that’s what the EFL want to do. Any successful appeal would be too late and would only overturn the points deduction retroactivity and I have no idea how that would work: extra points awarded in a later season?? The EFL would have serious balls to do a points deduction though because if they lost an appeal then the damages would run over £100m for missed promotion. This is the salient point. Fines can be appealed, but points in effect are "owned" by the EFL and are theirs to award or remove as they wish. See Swindon years back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alreadyexists Posted August 10, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted August 10, 2018 (edited) It is a bit confusing how our new owners don’t seem to be too worried about it all. We heard that ‘we couldn’t afford free transfers’ in the media in early June. Then we can buy new players and loan players and pay wages, and offer new contracts now... it is a bit of a puzzle that I don’t understand. Perhaps they’re just business sharks that are doing a bit of ‘don’t blink first’ stuff. But I doubt that, they must have a plan? Edited August 10, 2018 by alreadyexists Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hooter Posted August 10, 2018 Visiting Supporter Share Posted August 10, 2018 (edited) 6 minutes ago, alreadyexists said: It is a bit confusing how our new owners don’t seem to be too worried about it all. We heard that ‘we couldn’t afford free transfers’ in the media in early June. Then we can buy new players and loan players and pay wages, and offer new contracts now... it is a bit of a puzzle that I don’t understand. Perhaps they’re just business sharks that are doing a bit of ‘don’t blink first’ stuff. But I doubt that, they must have a plan? Well, the EFL will start to look 1st March. If you've a risk appetite I'd guess you try and get what good loans you can now, and take a view in January ? Especially if you think you've a very valuable asset you can sell to make the numbers add up then ? Just a guess, but you really don't need Grealish to have a serious dip in form, or a serious injury, I suspect he is still your insurance policy. Having "billionaire owners" will not in itself make this issue go away, there is a bet on the table. Edited August 10, 2018 by hooter 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fun Factory Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 FFP is overated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveAV1 Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 10 minutes ago, alreadyexists said: It is a bit confusing how our new owners don’t seem to be too worried about it all. We heard that ‘we couldn’t afford free transfers’ in the media in early June. Then we can buy new players and loan players and pay wages, and offer new contracts now... it is a bit of a puzzle that I don’t understand. Perhaps they’re just business sharks that are doing a bit of ‘don’t blink first’ stuff. But I doubt that, they must have a plan? I think they have a plan and some mega expensive lawyers. The EFL are bullies and recent events demonstrate we won’t be bullied. Man City got their knuckles wrapped by reducing their Champions League squad by 1 a few years back. That was after stories circulating in the press that ffp was going to be challenged in court by a number of clubs, one of them being Man City. Suddenly it’s all gone away and nothings happened. Does anyone seriously think that PSG have raised enough money through football to spend £200m on Neymar plus his eye watering wages? They can come with all the bluster and sabre rattling they want, our guys lawyers and accountants will just say, “See you in court and bring your cheque book.” 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Albrighton Posted August 10, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted August 10, 2018 14 minutes ago, hooter said: Having "billionaire owners" will not in itself make this issue go away, there is a bet on the table. You’re right it won’t, but hopefully having clever billionaire owners will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheStagMan Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 Will be interesting to see what the EFL do with the neanderthals down the road - they are looking down the barrel of failing test 3 and being referred to the disciplinary committee under the new rule, so be interesting to see how their punishment stacks up against the QPR fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hooter Posted August 10, 2018 Visiting Supporter Share Posted August 10, 2018 2 minutes ago, Shropshire Lad said: You’re right it won’t, but hopefully having clever billionaire owners will. Time will tell I guess. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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