The AVFC FFP thread

[MWARLEY2]

7 minutes ago, tomsky_11 said:

Hmm. I predicted pre tax profit of £4M and FFP figure of £20M a while back. I think the latter figure is going to be about the same.

I had lower revenue and higher wages though, so presumably amortisation has had a massive uptick way beyond what I'd expected. Club saying they spent £203.5M on player aquisitions backs this up.

Most estimates for what we spent 21/22 seem to be more like £120M, so not sure how we get to over £200M?

Did u include rhe 10 mill to Randy for staying up for 3 seasons ? 

[Czarnikjak]

13 minutes ago, tomsky_11 said:

Most estimates for what we spent 21/22 seem to be more like £120M, so not sure how we get to over £200M?

Not had a chance to look at the accounts yet, but if this £200m is a cash flow figure, it would also include all outstanding transfer installments (and any possible addons)we had to pay during this period from previous transfers.

Edited March 1, 2023 by Czarnikjak

[Demitri_C]

If we didn't get that grealish money we would have made losses but then i guess we wouldn't have spent as much

So really we can afford to spend big and not worry about ffp for a few years. Lets not forget this prob doesn't include the 35m for chuck and ings neither 

Edited March 1, 2023 by Demitri_C

[tomsky_11]

13 minutes ago, MWARLEY2 said:

Did u include rhe 10 mill to Randy for staying up for 3 seasons ? 

In my estimate last year? No, no idea that was a thing.

I trying to work out now how we've got to where we are, yes:

Some of that other has to be amortisation. I'd expected an increase of maybe £20-£25M previously, though my more recent estimate had it at more like £15M, which I'm guessing is a bit off.

I guess maybe potential for some losses on other player sales eg. Engels, Samatta, but those won't be big. Some kind of increase in depreciation also due to Brookvale? Again not big. Loan fees could be interesting I guess with Coutinho? Though plenty of loans out that could have attracted some kind of fee also.

12 minutes ago, Czarnikjak said:

Not had a chance to look at the accounts yet, but if this £200m is a cash flow figure, it would also include all outstanding transfer installments (and any possible addons)we had to pay during this period from previous transfers.

Yep, I'd thought they could just be talking cash there. Doesn't really help understand the profit or FFP calc though.

[Jareth]

So - what does this mean for Summer? Do we have loadsamoney, or do we not?

[Delphinho123]

25 minutes ago, Jareth said:

So - what does this mean for Summer? Do we have loadsamoney, or do we not?

This.

Can somebody please tell me if we can blow a load of money on players or not? 

[tomsky_11]

37 minutes ago, Jareth said:

So - what does this mean for Summer? Do we have loadsamoney, or do we not?

Maybe?

Rough rough estimate:

P/(L) is change is player sales from Grealish, ie. assuming £35M profit this season. Add back the RL payment. 10% increase revenue and costs incl wages. £5M amortisation increase from my previous workings for lack of any detail on 21/22 yet.

Assume £20m adjustments per season for FFP means around £(20M) for 21/22 and 22/23 for FFP. With a three season allowable loss of £(105M) gives us £85M to play with in 23/24? Except would need to also keep in mind the Grealish money falling off for 24/25 calc.

edit: knock £1M off the cost increase cos I've added 10% of the RL payment in that.

Edited March 1, 2023 by tomsky_11

[Demitri_C]

The lerner payment figure surely doesnt count towards ffp?

[tomsky_11]

1 minute ago, Demitri_C said:

The lerner payment figure surely doesnt count towards ffp?

Thought crossed my mind but haven't looked into it yet.

[Czarnikjak]

11 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

The lerner payment figure surely doesnt count towards ffp?

Why wouldn't it?

Only academy, women football, charity costs and stadium/facilities capital expenditure doesn't count.

 

Unless it was agreed to be paid by the owners directly, not by the club.

If club is paying it, it should be listed somewhere in accounts.

Edited March 1, 2023 by Czarnikjak

[blandy]

24 minutes ago, Czarnikjak said:

Only academy, women football, charity costs and stadium/facilities capital expenditure doesn't count.

Just on this, I'm not sure what the current rules are. There's nothing in the PL handbook which says this. I'm not aware of any current, publicly available document detailing the way P&S calcs are handled. The PL handbook (pdf) just talks (E.46 - E.50) about the 3 year rolling calculation and cumulative losses in terms of "Adjusted Earnings Before Tax".

The whole system is changing anyway, so a lot of what we talk about will be completely out of date!

 

[tomsky_11]

23 minutes ago, Czarnikjak said:

Why wouldn't it?

Only academy, women football, charity costs and stadium/facilities capital expenditure doesn't count.

 

Unless it was agreed to be paid by the owners directly, not by the club.

If club is paying it, it should be listed somewhere in accounts.

Says the liability fell on the club because Tony Xia couldn't pay it.

[Czarnikjak]

4 minutes ago, blandy said:

Just on this, I'm not sure what the current rules are. There's nothing in the PL handbook which says this. I'm not aware of any current, publicly available document detailing the way P&S calcs are handled. The PL handbook (pdf) just talks (E.46 - E.50) about the 3 year rolling calculation and cumulative losses in terms of "Adjusted Earnings Before Tax".

The whole system is changing anyway, so a lot of what we talk about will be completely out of date!

 

It's in appendix 5 of the handbook

Youth development expenditure 

Women’s footbal expenditure 

Community development expenditure 

[tomsky_11]

8 minutes ago, blandy said:

Just on this, I'm not sure what the current rules are. There's nothing in the PL handbook which says this. I'm not aware of any current, publicly available document detailing the way P&S calcs are handled. The PL handbook (pdf) just talks (E.46 - E.50) about the 3 year rolling calculation and cumulative losses in terms of "Adjusted Earnings Before Tax".

The whole system is changing anyway, so a lot of what we talk about will be completely out of date!

 

Adjusted EBT is submitted via this form:

[blandy]

3 minutes ago, Czarnikjak said:

It's in appendix 5 of the handbook

Youth development expenditure 

Women’s footbal expenditure 

Community development expenditure 

It's not, but it's moved to Section A definitions, I'd just missed it (perhaps because it has moved).

Quote

1. (a)  depreciation and/or impairment of tangible fixed assets, amortisation or impairment of goodwill and other intangible assets (but excluding amortisation of the costs of Players’ registrations);

2. (b)  Women’s Football Expenditure;

3. (c)  Youth Development Expenditure;

4. (d)  CommunityDevelopmentExpenditure;and

5. (e)  in respect of Seasons 2019/20, 2020/21, and 2021/22 only, COVID-19 Costs.

Each of Youth Development Expenditure, Women’s Football Expenditure and Community Development Expenditure and COVID-19 Costs shall only be excluded from the calculation of Adjusted Earnings Before Tax if separately disclosed:

6. (f)  by way of notes to the Annual Accounts; or

7. (g)  by way of supplementary information which reconciles to the Annual Accounts and which has been subject to independent audit;

 

[abdulaziz1]

When you think of it, we still made some money for:

Chuk, Ings, Targett, Samatta, El Ghazi, Engels (not sure) and Trez. But we ofcourse lost more. I think we need to sell one or two players with a good return (+10m). One of the best moves is that the club stopped getting players that won’t upgrade the team for longer term.

We would also do well if we can offload Coutinho and sell Digne. Would give us a good space.

[a-k]

1 hour ago, Delphinho123 said:

This.

Can somebody please tell me if we can blow a load of money on players or not? 

[Demitri_C]

1 hour ago, Czarnikjak said:

Why wouldn't it?

Only academy, women football, charity costs and stadium/facilities capital expenditure doesn't count.

 

Unless it was agreed to be paid by the owners directly, not by the club.

If club is paying it, it should be listed somewhere in accounts.

Dont see how you can add this to ffp when it was a agreement made when it was over 5 years ago under two ownerships before NSWE saved us

Transfers wages etc i would imagine are the FFP things they look at.

This was negotiated by that idiot xia

[Keyblade]

I can see why Unai joined now. Primed for him to shape this team in his image. I can't wait for next season.

[MaVilla]

2 hours ago, tomsky_11 said:

gives us £85M to play with in 23/24?

that doesnt sound anywhere near the 100-150m a lot of ppl were hoping for?

85m wont go far for a team revamp.

Edited March 1, 2023 by MaVilla