tomsky_11 Posted March 6, 2023 Share Posted March 6, 2023 3 minutes ago, ender4 said: They are in 22/23 year. The accounts just published are for 21/22 so won't include Duran & Moreno. Same with Chuk and Ings, both in current year. The 21/22 accounts state some post-balance sheet activity so these are 22/23 figures given in the notes of the 21/22 accounts. They will not be final so 22/23 will likely change. The spend seems to be the most variable of these, while things like expected amortisation and transfer income have been more accurate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted March 6, 2023 Moderator Share Posted March 6, 2023 Stay on topic please Villans. This is not the thread for “who would you rather sell?” Or how is this or that player doing, or how much you think a particular player might be worth. Ta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CVByrne Posted March 6, 2023 Share Posted March 6, 2023 1 hour ago, ender4 said: They are in 22/23 year. The accounts just published are for 21/22 so won't include Duran & Moreno. Same with Chuk and Ings, both in current year. They always quote additional information about the current period (ie after accounts ending 2022). They stated in current financial year (ending May 2023) we'd £63.4m spent and £49.7m brought in. That's where I got those figures Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seal Posted March 6, 2023 Share Posted March 6, 2023 6 hours ago, The Fun Factory said: Well this thread is a bit depressing after last week I thought we had actually turned a small profit. you do gotta pay tax on profit. you don't wanna pay tax (not from a tax evasion POV, but from a cashflow POV). if the eggs are straight from the ffp front ( which I have no clue about) you gunna wanna get your profit down to pay less tribute to dem government fellas. gotta remember it ain't lack of profit that kills busy nesses, it is lack of cash. a bit different with FFP, but I am sure that the accountant nerdz in the AV Finance Dept also try and manage da cashflow too. in the world of ffp, profits do help to buy players, but also cash is better at buying players, so yeah its a balancing act. I am a bit naive on FFP rules, so out of interest, is the profit its calculated on PBT or PAT? peace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaVilla Posted March 6, 2023 Share Posted March 6, 2023 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomsky_11 Posted March 6, 2023 Share Posted March 6, 2023 1 hour ago, Seal said: you do gotta pay tax on profit. you don't wanna pay tax (not from a tax evasion POV, but from a cashflow POV). if the eggs are straight from the ffp front ( which I have no clue about) you gunna wanna get your profit down to pay less tribute to dem government fellas. gotta remember it ain't lack of profit that kills busy nesses, it is lack of cash. a bit different with FFP, but I am sure that the accountant nerdz in the AV Finance Dept also try and manage da cashflow too. in the world of ffp, profits do help to buy players, but also cash is better at buying players, so yeah its a balancing act. I am a bit naive on FFP rules, so out of interest, is the profit its calculated on PBT or PAT? peace Cash not really an issue given owners’ willingness to fund things. And FFP calc starts with profit before tax. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post KMitch Posted March 7, 2023 Popular Post Share Posted March 7, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, MaVilla said: Key points: NSWE have been "incredibly generous" to the club. Without them, Villa would not be in the Premier League today. Myth that the Premier League is awash with riches for everyone, the majority of clubs are losing money. Just surviving is an expensive business. Villa spent more the year after selling Grealish because of the additional revenue brought in, but doing this year in and year out is extremely hard to do, especially when you're essentially weakening your team selling your best players Clubs will see you bring in this profit in the news and will ask for more from us because we're seen as having more money now COVID screwed up the accounts for several years for clubs -> Accounts were over inflated the year after COVID when we played 45 Premier League games in 2021 Premier league clubs LOSE money playing in the League Cup & FA Cup, unless they get to Wembley. In fact, if you win a cup, the player bonuses alone are more than the winners prizes... Man United lost money winning the League Cup this year. All clubs pay in installments/on credit now. It's become the common method of doing business for all Premier League clubs. Premier League clubs owe over £2 Billion in transfer fee installments to other clubs - Manchester United alone owes over £300m... Villa are in the Premier League's "Middle Class" -> Going from the "Middle Class" to "Upper Class" is incredibly difficult - We essentially start the season at a minimum of £250m in revenue behind the top 6 Villa have spent over £450m on players since promotion, most still on installments. Kieran's view on Villa's running of the financials - Very sensible. Doing a good job and it's better to continue to follow the rules and not over spend. "Villa are absolutely right to follow FFP and not try to do an Everton" Talked about how Everton tried to spend their way into the top 6 and it's turned into a very scary situation for their club now financially. Talking about how poorly written player contracts can sink a club after relegation, didn't want to speak about figures on air, but used Michael Keane at Everton as someone's contract he's seen as being astronomical. Also talked about Sunderland/Jack Rodwell as an another cautionary tale. Chelsea's recent business -> Buying players on very long installment plans help with yearly amortization accounts, but also nearly all the players are on low wages for Chelsea (not a well known thing, but from speaking to agents/insiders his sense is they're on £100k/year or less). Will balance the books with their conveyor belt of academy talents they're going to sell in the future for pure profit (Conor Gallagher & Mason Mount for instance). Edited March 7, 2023 by KMitch 9 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CVByrne Posted March 7, 2023 Share Posted March 7, 2023 Key elements for Villas future 1. Increasing commercial revenue from VP. The VP expansion plans generate more income from VP and allow for ancillary income via events (concerts and Villa Live). 2. Increase our sponsorship deals and partnerships. We need to close the gap on the top teams and create a new tier of Villa / Newcastle creating a gap to the other 12 PL teams in this area. 3. Consistently higher league positions. Top 8 should be what we deem as regular given we will have Top 8 in terms of squad cost. With higher placings comes more TV revenue and ideally European football which brings more TV revenue and match ay revenue and commercial revenue. 4. Youth development, continue to expand our youth scouting and working with our partner clubs. The Academy should be a source of income by generating players good enough for the first team or good enough to generate consistent profit on player sales. 5. Continuity of the playing squad. With Emery we can iterate on the squad of players we have which is already a top 10 squad. Adding and building over time with the continuity gives us an edge. With the natural expansion of the PL revenue we can compete with CL clubs in other countries for players which can help us close gap on top sides. To be competitive. We need to stick with our wage structures and keeping a level of transfer fee amortisation that can fit our budget. Using data we have built a talented squad and with a proper manager that has clearly been shown. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomsky_11 Posted March 7, 2023 Share Posted March 7, 2023 1 hour ago, CVByrne said: Key elements for Villas future 1. Increasing commercial revenue from VP. The VP expansion plans generate more income from VP and allow for ancillary income via events (concerts and Villa Live). 2. Increase our sponsorship deals and partnerships. We need to close the gap on the top teams and create a new tier of Villa / Newcastle creating a gap to the other 12 PL teams in this area. 3. Consistently higher league positions. Top 8 should be what we deem as regular given we will have Top 8 in terms of squad cost. With higher placings comes more TV revenue and ideally European football which brings more TV revenue and match ay revenue and commercial revenue. 4. Youth development, continue to expand our youth scouting and working with our partner clubs. The Academy should be a source of income by generating players good enough for the first team or good enough to generate consistent profit on player sales. 5. Continuity of the playing squad. With Emery we can iterate on the squad of players we have which is already a top 10 squad. Adding and building over time with the continuity gives us an edge. With the natural expansion of the PL revenue we can compete with CL clubs in other countries for players which can help us close gap on top sides. To be competitive. We need to stick with our wage structures and keeping a level of transfer fee amortisation that can fit our budget. Using data we have built a talented squad and with a proper manager that has clearly been shown. What can we realistically expect in terms of increases in points 1 and 2? Unless we are consistently achieving point 3, to the point of being in Europe, then it doesn't feel like the gains are as significant as those that can be made from points 4-5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingman Posted March 7, 2023 Share Posted March 7, 2023 Considering we have had only 2 Saturday 3pm kick offs at home all season then I presume TV money income for this season will be one of the most lucrative since inception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterSw Posted March 7, 2023 Share Posted March 7, 2023 10 hours ago, KMitch said: but also nearly all the players are on low wages for Chelsea (not a well known thing, but from speaking to agents/insiders his sense is they're on £100k/year or less). Sounds like they are being run like an NFL/NBA franchise now - long contracts with lots of 'guaranteed money' up front aka signing on bonus etc. Out of interest, do player appearance fees, goal bonus etc. could towards their wage/FFP? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomsky_11 Posted March 7, 2023 Share Posted March 7, 2023 15 minutes ago, PeterSw said: Out of interest, do player appearance fees, goal bonus etc. could towards their wage/FFP? Yes. Everything in NBT apart from (on conditions) the items shown a few pages back (depreciation on tangibles and non-player amortisation, youth, community and women's expenditure) counts towards FFP. My understanding is that payments to players, whether performance or sign-on bonuses, go to staff costs. I think there may be some scope for variance in terms of the timing of recognition of these. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomsky_11 Posted March 7, 2023 Share Posted March 7, 2023 (edited) 45 minutes ago, Kingman said: Considering we have had only 2 Saturday 3pm kick offs at home all season then I presume TV money income for this season will be one of the most lucrative since inception. We've had 14 and are scheduled for another 3, with 4 rounds on fixtures not yet assigned for broadcast. Don't think will be much different to last season. Fixtures on our wiki for the season have 17 as TV games, but I think they've missed at least Liverpool and Man City at end of the season so at least 19. Broadcast money should be more next season either way, due to the new international rights deal (I think could possibly be extra £10-15M) and also our higher league finish (as it stands around £7.5M, as it's apparently about £2.5M per league position) Edited March 7, 2023 by tomsky_11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CVByrne Posted March 7, 2023 Share Posted March 7, 2023 4 hours ago, tomsky_11 said: What can we realistically expect in terms of increases in points 1 and 2? Unless we are consistently achieving point 3, to the point of being in Europe, then it doesn't feel like the gains are as significant as those that can be made from points 4-5. 1 is limited by two factors. Size of Villa Park and the fact Villa Park is in Aston and not Islington or Chelsea. On 2. Spurs showed the model. You get the club into Europe regularly and then if you can break into CL you can now command a different level of sponsorship. They signed long term deals when their stock was highest. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fun Factory Posted March 7, 2023 Share Posted March 7, 2023 2 hours ago, Kingman said: Considering we have had only 2 Saturday 3pm kick offs at home all season then I presume TV money income for this season will be one of the most lucrative since inception. And now we sell out virtually every home league game. In the olden days pre 2019 it was big news when we hit a 40,000 plus gate. Now it is just standard. Can you imagine the demand if we ever had a squad competitive enough to challenge for a top 4 spot, or even the title? I know it won't happen, but it's a nice thought. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CVByrne Posted March 7, 2023 Share Posted March 7, 2023 2 hours ago, tomsky_11 said: Yes. Everything in NBT apart from (on conditions) the items shown a few pages back (depreciation on tangibles and non-player amortisation, youth, community and women's expenditure) counts towards FFP. My understanding is that payments to players, whether performance or sign-on bonuses, go to staff costs. I think there may be some scope for variance in terms of the timing of recognition of these. Yes my understanding too. Sign on bonus for example paid over 3 installments would go into wages in the respective accounting years. As would bonuses. I believe we only pay bonuses for events that bring in additional income (higher leave placings / winning cup and qualification for Europe). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CVByrne Posted March 7, 2023 Share Posted March 7, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, tomsky_11 said: We've had 14 and are scheduled for another 3, with 4 rounds on fixtures not yet assigned for broadcast. Don't think will be much different to last season. Fixtures on our wiki for the season have 17 as TV games, but I think they've missed at least Liverpool and Man City at end of the season so at least 19. Broadcast money should be more next season either way, due to the new international rights deal (I think could possibly be extra £10-15M) and also our higher league finish (as it stands around £7.5M, as it's apparently about £2.5M per league position) I think it's £2.2m per place. So if we end 9th we'll see an increase of £11m in income but we'll see some of that paid away in additional salary via Bonus to players. Also the increase in merit payments from new overseas TV deal will be additional 23m to top club and 9m to bottom club. So that's about an additional £17m if we end 9th. So if we get 9th we'll see revenue rise by £28m on media alone. Then next season we'll have new shirt sponsor revenue etc.. Edited March 7, 2023 by CVByrne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ender4 Posted March 7, 2023 Share Posted March 7, 2023 However you look at it, Aston Villa have £200m per year LESS to spend on transfers and players than each of the big 6 clubs. Or to put it another way, the top 6 can spend double every season on their squad. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fun Factory Posted March 7, 2023 Share Posted March 7, 2023 Yes, so that means if one of the 6 have a bad season and finish 8th or 9th, then they can just switch on the afterburners and buy more players to make sure that that doesn't happen again. It is basically fixed so that they won't finish mid table even if they are badly run. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomsky_11 Posted March 7, 2023 Share Posted March 7, 2023 39 minutes ago, CVByrne said: Also the increase in merit payments from new overseas TV deal will be additional 23m to top club and 9m to bottom club. So that's about an additional £17m if we end 9th. What's the source for this? I'd seen something about the increase above previous deal being split at a ratio 1.8:1 from the top to bottom club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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