The Fun Factory Posted January 21, 2023 Share Posted January 21, 2023 4 goals and 2 assists in his last 10 games for the Villa. Haters gonna hate. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icouldtelltheworld Posted January 21, 2023 Share Posted January 21, 2023 5 minutes ago, lexicon said: There is a class of striker there, yes, an example being Darwin Nunez who cost 80m. Or Ivan Toney, who cost £5m Other examples are available mate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa89 Posted January 21, 2023 Share Posted January 21, 2023 3 minutes ago, The Fun Factory said: 4 goals and 2 assists in his last 10 games for the Villa. Haters gonna hate. Why did you pick the last ten games? He has 4 goals in total this season from 19 games. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam2003 Posted January 21, 2023 Share Posted January 21, 2023 16 minutes ago, nick76 said: Yeah twisting the context is really going get me into the debate. Enjoy your evening! I don’t really get into the back and forths in these, just found it an amusing choice of words. Have a good night! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fun Factory Posted January 21, 2023 Share Posted January 21, 2023 1 minute ago, villa89 said: Why did you pick the last ten games? He has 4 goals in total this season from 19 games. Because that is when we have had a competent manager in charge. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Adam2003 Posted January 21, 2023 Popular Post Share Posted January 21, 2023 1 minute ago, villa89 said: Why did you pick the last ten games? He has 4 goals in total this season from 19 games. Presumably they picked the last ten because those are the games when he wasn’t being managed by an absolute moron… 3 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhan_Zhuang Posted January 21, 2023 Share Posted January 21, 2023 1 minute ago, villa89 said: Why did you pick the last ten games? He has 4 goals in total this season from 19 games. Gerrard-Ball v Emery-ball There is no contest right? We have established this already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted January 21, 2023 Share Posted January 21, 2023 2 minutes ago, villa89 said: Why did you pick the last ten games? He has 4 goals in total this season from 19 games. Thats when he stopped learning from Tactics Tim 2.0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulC Posted January 21, 2023 Share Posted January 21, 2023 Took his chance, worked tirelessly. Won a close fought game for us. No complaints from me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexicon Posted January 21, 2023 Share Posted January 21, 2023 Just now, icouldtelltheworld said: Or Ivan Toney, who cost £5m Other examples are available mate Toney isn't a step up IMO (especially when you take penalties away from his goal tally) and what they paid for him when he was in the Championship is competely irrelevant. Do you honestly think the Toney that was bought for 5m is the same as the Toney now? They took a risk and developed him as a player. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexicon Posted January 21, 2023 Share Posted January 21, 2023 5 minutes ago, villa89 said: Why did you pick the last ten games? He has 4 goals in total this season from 19 games. You're right, it should only be 9. The Gerrard times are completely irrelevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icouldtelltheworld Posted January 21, 2023 Share Posted January 21, 2023 1 minute ago, lexicon said: Toney isn't a step up IMO (especially when you take penalties away from his goal tally) and what they paid for him when he was in the Championship is competely irrelevant. Do you honestly think the Toney that was bought for 5m is the same as the Toney now? They took a risk and developed him as a player. Of course not, but part of the frustration for people IMO is that Ollie hasn't really developed in the way we might have hoped following his first PL season. As I've said twice already, I like him, think he brings a lot to the team. He deserved to remain first choice over Ings, but I do think he's someone that we will look to upgrade on as we try to push into the European places Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steero113 Posted January 21, 2023 Share Posted January 21, 2023 9 minutes ago, icouldtelltheworld said: Or Ivan Toney, who cost £5m Other examples are available mate £15m but agree there are plenty of examples out there. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexicon Posted January 21, 2023 Share Posted January 21, 2023 Just now, icouldtelltheworld said: Of course not, but part of the frustration for people IMO is that Ollie hasn't really developed in the way we might have hoped following his first PL season. As I've said twice already, I like him, think he brings a lot to the team. He deserved to remain first choice over Ings, but I do think he's someone that we will look to upgrade on as we try to push into the European places The upheaval and having that suede-headed clown as a manager for a year has not helped him or anyone else really. For me, if you look at how Emery likes his teams to play, a guy like Watkins plays a very important part. Upgrading him is going to be very difficult because you need to find someone who can match what he brings to the table in terms of his work rate, attitude and athleticism and then find someone who has a bit more about him too. As I mentioned, the only player that I can think of who is similar is Nunez and he would be out of our reach and price range for some time, I believe. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allani Posted January 21, 2023 Share Posted January 21, 2023 8 minutes ago, tom_avfc said: Couldn’t agree more. Never gets the credit but always takes the blame. I really don't think this is even remotely true. Most of Ollie's critics on here appreciate his strengths. The question mark has always been whether he scores enough goals - especially as we don't have wide players like Son or Salah who are scoring 15+ goals a season. Of the 10 teams above us in the league only Chelsea have struggled as much as us in terms of goals scored (22 for them v 23 for us). Man Utd are the next worse on 30 (which is still 30% more goals than us), the other 8 have all scored at least 9 goals more than us in the first half of the season. And it's not like this is a new issue or something that has only been a problem this season. I think Ollie now has 4 PL goals this season. So it isn't unreasonable to question his goal scoring record. Can we really afford to have a CF who has only scored 4 times? Especially when he is our joint top scorer and we don't have a midfield packed with goal scorers? Maybe it would be less critical if we had two or three other players on 7 or 8 goals but we don't. Yes he does an awful lot of good stuff (I don't think anyone has ever said differently) but is the value of that stuff worth the fact that we are scoring almost 50% fewer goals as a team as our immediate rivals? That is the key question. Yes the stats are impacted by the fact that we were awful under our previous manager and yes they are much improved under Emery. However, the fundamental question remains - do we score more goals by getting wide players who will score 15 goals a season or another CF who will score that number? Ideally obviously we'd do both!!! Personally I think under Emery we will (either this season or next) be playing with Ollie and another CF. I can see Ollie possibly playing slightly deeper and I actually think he will start scoring more goals under Emery - especially if we have a couple of other players scoring around him. I think he's already looking a little sharper and I really hope that with another goal threat in the side, Ollie will get a bit more space to exploit and up his goal contributions. We were having similar debates about our midfield not that long ago - now that we have Kamara most of those debates ended and we've seen what can happen when quality is added. I think the same could happen with Ollie - get a top class "goal scorer" in and everything about Ollie will improve. I've been told many times that 4-4-2 died in the 90s but Emery seems to have done pretty well in recent seasons with his version of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom_avfc Posted January 21, 2023 Share Posted January 21, 2023 2 minutes ago, allani said: I really don't think this is even remotely true. Most of Ollie's critics on here appreciate his strengths. The question mark has always been whether he scores enough goals - especially as we don't have wide players like Son or Salah who are scoring 15+ goals a season. Of the 10 teams above us in the league only Chelsea have struggled as much as us in terms of goals scored (22 for them v 23 for us). Man Utd are the next worse on 30 (which is still 30% more goals than us), the other 8 have all scored at least 9 goals more than us in the first half of the season. And it's not like this is a new issue or something that has only been a problem this season. I think Ollie now has 4 PL goals this season. So it isn't unreasonable to question his goal scoring record. Can we really afford to have a CF who has only scored 4 times? Especially when he is our joint top scorer and we don't have a midfield packed with goal scorers? Maybe it would be less critical if we had two or three other players on 7 or 8 goals but we don't. Yes he does an awful lot of good stuff (I don't think anyone has ever said differently) but is the value of that stuff worth the fact that we are scoring almost 50% fewer goals as a team as our immediate rivals? That is the key question. Yes the stats are impacted by the fact that we were awful under our previous manager and yes they are much improved under Emery. However, the fundamental question remains - do we score more goals by getting wide players who will score 15 goals a season or another CF who will score that number? Ideally obviously we'd do both!!! Personally I think under Emery we will (either this season or next) be playing with Ollie and another CF. I can see Ollie possibly playing slightly deeper and I actually think he will start scoring more goals under Emery - especially if we have a couple of other players scoring around him. I think he's already looking a little sharper and I really hope that with another goal threat in the side, Ollie will get a bit more space to exploit and up his goal contributions. We were having similar debates about our midfield not that long ago - now that we have Kamara most of those debates ended and we've seen what can happen when quality is added. I think the same could happen with Ollie - get a top class "goal scorer" in and everything about Ollie will improve. I've been told many times that 4-4-2 died in the 90s but Emery seems to have done pretty well in recent seasons with his version of it. How many chances do Chelsea and United create compared to us? I’d imagine it’s vastly superior. Get a top class goal scorer is easier said than done. Watkins has his limitations but is vastly underrated by a large proportion of our fan base. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allani Posted January 21, 2023 Share Posted January 21, 2023 9 minutes ago, lexicon said: The upheaval and having that suede-headed clown as a manager for a year has not helped him or anyone else really. For me, if you look at how Emery likes his teams to play, a guy like Watkins plays a very important part. Upgrading him is going to be very difficult because you need to find someone who can match what he brings to the table in terms of his work rate, attitude and athleticism and then find someone who has a bit more about him too. As I mentioned, the only player that I can think of who is similar is Nunez and he would be out of our reach and price range for some time, I believe. That assumes that we need 1 player to do all of it. Emery tends to play with more of a 4-4-2 so a pressing CF and a scoring CF could be a good partnership. I disagree that we need to upgrade Ollie in the next 18 months. I think we'll sign another CF (more of a goal threat than a "pressing" forward) and play them alongside Ollie. It is already clear that Emery is less worried about a strict formation and is more interested in getting the right balance to attack and defend the different parts of the pitch as a team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KMitch Posted January 21, 2023 Share Posted January 21, 2023 5 minutes ago, tom_avfc said: How many chances do Chelsea and United create compared to us? I’d imagine it’s vastly superior. Get a top class goal scorer is easier said than done. Watkins has his limitations but is vastly underrated by a large proportion of our fan base. I don't think he's underrated by the fanbase... I think most of us know exactly who he is: an extremely athletic runner with phenomenal work rate and pace, but with average finishing and below average touch/decision making. He's a mid-table starting striker or a bench option for a top 6 side. When he's playing well, he's great. When he is having an off day, we may as well be playing with 10 men. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinRichardsonsMoustache Posted January 21, 2023 Share Posted January 21, 2023 Wonder if being the main man will give him a boost? I always thought that the Ings signing put his nose out of joint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allani Posted January 21, 2023 Share Posted January 21, 2023 5 minutes ago, tom_avfc said: How many chances do Chelsea and United create compared to us? I’d imagine it’s vastly superior. Get a top class goal scorer is easier said than done. Watkins has his limitations but is vastly underrated by a large proportion of our fan base. True. But top class goal scorers also create their own chances by reading the game well and getting themselves in the right positions at the right time. They make runs to where the ball might go so if it goes there they immediately have a chance. Ollie has a habit of waiting for the ball to be played and reacting to it - by which time the defender has also had a chance to react. He "almost" gets on the end of a chance an awful lot. Other strikers would get to those chances because they've made their move that 0.5 seconds sooner and bought themselves the extra space to get to the ball first or get a shot away. That has nothing to do with under-rating Ollie. He's right up there in terms of other attributes. As I said - I do think Emery will find a system that plays to Ollie's strengths, gives us more of a goal threat and will also result in Ollie scoring more goals. I'm not looking to replace him in our starting XI but I'd rather have a "striker" type player joining him than another attacking "wide" player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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