Johan Lange

[bose]

2 minutes ago, TRO said:

I have a real sense of foreboding with this guy.

For a man with a senior position at the club and a part responsibility for presiding over, woeful results, for some time......I am baffled as to why, no noises, seem to come from him.

I am also, baffled as to why the media, have not questioned, his standing within the club.

2 managers have gone, and to my knowledge, not a murmur, from him........weird or what?

I hope, from what I can see, Unai has a remit to by pass him, and render him obsolete...I don't know what difference it will make.

I do get, the notion, that Unai has to work with him, and rely on him to get players in.....but I hope the choices are Unai's and his alone, with the aid of the analytics boys.

Its always difficult, to make hard and fast judgements on folks work, when you are not privvy to it.....so, I can only give my feelings/ suspicions on the matter.

PS I am generally sceptical of folk who say very little, enter Johan Lange.

That’s a new one.

It’s the complete opposite for me. Too many people blather too much, talking, talking and talking by without saying anything at all.

Give me the quiet people all day.

[TRO]

4 minutes ago, bose said:

That’s a new one.

It’s the complete opposite for me. Too many people blather too much, talking, talking and talking by without saying anything at all.

Give me the quiet people all day.

It takes all sorts.

I like transparency and still waters, run deep......and not knowing whats down there, fills me with Cynicism.

I like an open book, where you can deal with it.....a closed book, you can't.

but I guess different personalities, have different views on it.

Edited November 1, 2022 by TRO

[FLVillan]

11 minutes ago, bose said:

That’s a new one.

It’s the complete opposite for me. Too many people blather too much, talking, talking and talking by without saying anything at all.

Give me the quiet people all day.

100%.  Nobody has heard a peep out of Nassef since the Fulham match, but we all know what prompted that immediate decision.  Action, not words for me, all day long.

[TRO]

1 hour ago, FLVillan said:

100%.  Nobody has heard a peep out of Nassef since the Fulham match, but we all know what prompted that immediate decision.  Action, not words for me, all day long.

I think it depends on the Status....The owners have people to speak on behalf of the club, that's what they are employed for.....Investors/ owners,  rarely speak, that is not the same comparison....they employ people to speak, and explain the clubs performances.

I think you have taken this out of context.

Johan Lange IMO, should be explaining, why he has lost 2 managers and we are still in the mire....He has to be accountable, at his level, in the organisation....He is the Director of Football or Sporting Director, call it what you will.

Its funny, how he appears at Player/Manager unveiling.....is this a selective function?

[AV82]

Why don't we wait and see what Emery can extract from the players before we throw them, and anyone associated with how the club is run, in the bin?

[KMitch]

5 minutes ago, AV82 said:

Why don't we wait and see what Emery can extract from the players before we throw them, and anyone associated with how the club is run, in the bin?

Exactly...  I don't understand the obsession some have with firing everyone at the club and starting over every time we sack a manager.  

Purslow was ruthless with Suso...  Trust me, there is accountability going on behind the scenes.  If Lange isn't doing his job, they'll find someone else who will.  

[Kuwabatake Sanjuro]

3 hours ago, DeadlyDirk said:

He was the Assistant Manager wasn't he?

At the age of 32, not a bad achievement and Solbakken obviously rated him. Was academy manager at Copenhagen at 28 too, obviously had something about him.

[TRO]

22 minutes ago, KMitch said:

Exactly...  I don't understand the obsession some have with firing everyone at the club and starting over every time we sack a manager.  

Purslow was ruthless with Suso..,trust me, there is accountability going on behind the scenes.  If Lange isn't doing his job, they'll find someone else who will.  

[TRO]

3 hours ago, Bazmonkey said:

Sorry.....as a scout myself for a Premiership club.....the blame should solely be on Lange....he is the one who signs off on new players correct...but the scouts are directed by him.....its not as simple as watching games and coming back saying I've found the next best thing.....scouts are directed as to what the powers above want....if Lange wants a 6ft midfielder who can play with is left foot...then the scouts will go out and find one.

The recruitment over the past three years has been shocking....mediocre players for way too much money...some of which will be here for a while as no other team will taken them...maybe one or two.

Gerrard made mistakes...granted.....he got the sack but so should Lange giving him a duff squad to work with only a handful of good enough players.

Hallelujah.....sense at last.

I have always been taken, by your posts, no surprise now.

I totally endorse, your comments.

[sharkyvilla]

The problem is none of us really know what his remit exactly is, what his suggestions are, which ones get taken on board or ignored etc so it's hard to judge.  I can only guess that he was the one pushing for a winger for the squad in Sarr for example but the deal got pulled.  Wheoever's decision it was to back Gerrard's narrow system to the hilt gets the blame there.

[thunderball]

I have no idea what say he has over players - all or just his opinion and the decision is is with Purslow and the Manager?

I also think Gerrard & Purslow changed direction not him.

Not everything will work out and on paper the deals are reasonable, there are no embarrassment other than possibly Coutinho but I am certain he was never on a recommedned list of his.

I think Dendonker could be a very good buy; Bentancur was likely one of his but it didnt come off; Kamara looks decent; I like Buendia and think he has suffered due to management issues and nothing of his making; I think Ings is a Purslow buy. There is so much that goes on in player dealings its difficult to point the finger, I dont think there has been a stinker or obvious error just circumstantially not yet working out? What would be a useful endorsement is if we had any gem leftfield purchases, but mnaybe Purlsow/Manager decisions are more vanity/profile/instant than risking money on uncovering gems at present?

[il_serpente]

I seem to recall the club said a couple of years ago that the process was something like:

1. Manager communicates the type of players he needs
2. Lange and his team do the statistical research, come up with options and scout them.
3. Lange makes recommendations of a few players that fit the bill and represent good value from a "moneyball" perspective.
4. Manager has input and possibly final say on who to go after
5. Purslow and Lange try to sign the player
6. If a deal can't be done for first choice can't be done, move to next choice for that profile.
7. Rinse and repeat

It seems pretty clear that the process was short-circuited to get Ings and perhaps Bailey in on short notice when Jack left.  It also seems clear that the process was abandoned at least for Coutinho, probably Digne and likely even more broadly for Gerard's tenure.

So Lange's fingerprints are probably on:

• Emi M., Watkins, Cash, Traore, Sanson and perhaps Barkley loan from season 2 back in the PL, which was a pretty successful haul overall given our starting point, results that season and the limited FFP wiggle room that was probably available.
• Buendia, maybe Bailey, maybe Chambers, Olsen from last season.   Not as good a return as the previous season, as we were hoping to move forward and start looking at a higher caliber player, but not horrible in my book.
• Kamara, possibly Carlos and likely Dendoncker from this season.   Hard to tell how good that business has been given Carlos and Kamara have hardly played, though Kamara has looked the business and Dendoncker has at least looked capable.

On balance, I don't think it's fair yet to lay too much blame for our current situation at Lange's feet.  If Emery supplement/replaces some of the Purslow/Gerard mistakes with his own or additional Lange-scouted players and still can't get a tune out of them in combination with the existing Lange players, then all eyes are on Lange.

 

 

 

 

[villa4europe]

I thought he and his team did both, he has the scouting side of things and then he has the analyst side of it* the scouts do it with their eyes and experience and the stattos back it up, the money ball element as an example could be that Guilbert (pre lange) was ranked top 5 in europe for interceptions or something daft before we signed him but that's just something that alerts us, we still scout traditionally on top of the stats finding him

There is still the scouting element to it all though, I can understand that the manager says he wants a pacy winger who can play left or right and lange sets up thr network to go find him but then I don't understand where the failure is that someone down the chain somewhere is feeding the info back to go and get Bailey from leverkusen rather Diaby

To me at the moment it seems like our youth scouts are far more eagle eyed than our 1st team scouts, both fall under his umbrella and we do at least seem very competent at snapping up youngsters, his fingerprints are also on Tim, Wilson, kerr, feeney, aziz

And then there's more to his job than just recruitment, he's also going to be responsible for the youth integration, the signing of new contracts, the loans and looking after these guys, the youth cup victory probably should land more at the feet of suso but how many of them now go on to break through at villa is a measuring stick of lange, if in 2 years time he's still here and 4 or 5 of these youngsters are in the villa first team he's done his job and with Ramsey x 2, archer, Tim, KKH plus then a couple of the others it could happen

* the analyst side of it will then also go in to sports science and player performance not just recruitment

[momo]

What are people expecting? Unearthing the next CR7? New Messi? The buys are good, they were bought to follow Gerrard's style of play. It's like people here forgets that every team in all the big leagues has their own Lange, their own statistical team, their own moneyball model. Without Lange, Aston Villa would be 10 years behind instead of being on an even field with the rest of the Premier League.

Edited November 1, 2022 by momo

[WHY]

If Gerrard was out his depth then so is this guy, they are both similar in they came from tin pot leagues. Scandalous that this guy is anywhere near our great club. 

[Bazmonkey]

2 hours ago, AV82 said:

Why don't we wait and see what Emery can extract from the players before we throw them, and anyone associated with how the club is run, in the bin?

I get what you are saying....and as much as I comment on the lack of quality I would like to see what emery can do with the squad.

However, the problem is a lot of the players have been here a while now and through two.managers now and have we seen any improvement....no we haven't.

Will emery get mings to stop hoofing it....olllie wakins to find the net...trap a ball....cash to be good at defending....mcginn to be a good centre mid.....these are just examples....I.hope so....but can't see it...yes they will have good games....but we are where we are down to the recruitment.

Yes...get someone from the championship...lower leagues of Europe...but not a squad....you just end up with players learning on the job with each other rather than learning from good players already at the club 

 

[Kingman]

*wrong thread 

Edited November 1, 2022 by Kingman

[Reivax_Villa]

If the topic is about recruitment why aren’t we speaking about the Head of Recruitment - Rob Mackenzie??

 

 

[KMitch]

1 minute ago, Reivax_Villa said:

If the topic is about recruitment why aren’t we speaking about the Head of Recruitment - Rob Mackenzie??

 

 

Shhhhh!!!!  We're supposed to be beating Lange up for signing Gerrard, McGinn, & Mings in here!!!

[FLVillan]

12 hours ago, Bazmonkey said:

Sorry.....as a scout myself for a Premiership club.....the blame should solely be on Lange....he is the one who signs off on new players correct...but the scouts are directed by him.....its not as simple as watching games and coming back saying I've found the next best thing.....scouts are directed as to what the powers above want....if Lange wants a 6ft midfielder who can play with is left foot...then the scouts will go out and find one.

The recruitment over the past three years has been shocking....mediocre players for way too much money...some of which will be here for a while as no other team will taken them...maybe one or two.

Gerrard made mistakes...granted.....he got the sack but so should Lange giving him a duff squad to work with only a handful of good enough players.

Points well made.  However, it also can be very different from one club to the next what the definition of roles can be.  Especially with the Sporting Director/Head of Recruitment etc etc. role which is still a relatively new role in the English game.  It seems to me that Lange is very much kept away from the media (notably, Purslow has an Ellis-esque love of the microphone) and most-certainly he doesn't control the purse strings.  Granted we've spent a good amount of money on players who have under-performed, but there are significant mitigating circumstances around many of those, especially given public comments from both Dean Smith and Steven Gerrard that they needed "proven, experienced performers" to move the club forward (a clear deviation from how Edens had spelled things out when he first became co-owner).  

Clearly, at Villa, the head coach/manager has significantly more influence over transfer policy than at other clubs. If you analyze our net-spend over the past few years, it isn't especially high, given the money we've brought in for Grealish, Chukwumeka and others.  The owners are also trying to operate a sustainable club while additionally staying within the (corrupt) FFP regulations.  I saw an article the other day that we were 14th in the net-spend figures this past year, which ironically coincides directly with our league position. 

I agree that our players haven't done enough, but I've seen enough evidence from them in small bursts that they are far more capable than our league position reflects.  That is solely down to mentality and organization - the responsibility of a head coach and his staff.