luckyeddie Posted November 19, 2023 Share Posted November 19, 2023 8 minutes ago, Genie said: I don’t see how it’s deceiving the public, it’s completely transparent, and how most other countries recorded the deaths too. Because they are lumping in dying with Covid and dying from Covid in the same category, when I believe they are not. It is more to do with my distrust of the intentions and capabilities of this government. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted November 19, 2023 Share Posted November 19, 2023 2 minutes ago, sharkyvilla said: Wasn't the key stat the excess deaths compared to normal? Lots more people were dying than usually would, I suspect many of those who died 'with' covid rather than 'because of' it had their chances of surviving lessened by having a respiratory disease at the same time. Though this stat suffers a little bit because we had completely transformed how our health services worked. Plenty of people will have died because quality of care suffered due to covid leading to poorer diagnosis of conditions, lack of room to admit people for treatment that would have saved them, poorer general care due to short staffing because of nurses and doctors testing positive, etc. That's not to dismiss the stat or trivialise the numbers by any means, just to highlight almost any measure we had was flawed, so we recorded and used them all. There's no perfect answers to some of this stuff, especially in the moment. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trekka Posted November 19, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted November 19, 2023 4 minutes ago, sharkyvilla said: Wasn't the key stat the excess deaths compared to normal? Lots more people were dying than usually would, I suspect many of those who died 'with' covid rather than 'because of' it had their chances of surviving lessened by having a respiratory disease at the same time. The figure going back down to normal coincided with the vaccine roll out, I read in the Lancet that globally the vaccine would have saved 19m lives if you take recorded excess deaths as the best measure of covid. The excess deaths were probably down to liver failure during lockdown. (I'm joking!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thug Posted November 19, 2023 Share Posted November 19, 2023 10 minutes ago, Genie said: People who want to believe it will believe it. They fail to see the detail behind it, as I posted above. People who had covid within 28 days of their death have covid on their death certificate, ALONGSIDE the other cause(s). Someone who had covid a week before organ failure, has both recorded in their death certificate. I think you’re getting mixed up between statistical reporting and what goes on the death certificate. People who the doctor completing the certificate believed that Covid was a factor in their death had covid on their death certificate. It is not a requirement that if someone had covid 19 positive result within the last 28 days that it goes on the death certificate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted November 19, 2023 Share Posted November 19, 2023 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Thug said: It is not a requirement that if someone had covid 19 positive result within the last 28 days that it goes on the death certificate. It is Quote The doctor or coroner certifying a death can record more than one health condition or event on the form. The medical certificate of cause of death has two parts, Part 1 contains the sequence of health conditions or events leading directly to death, while Part 2 can contain other health conditions that contributed to the death but were not part of the direct sequence. For statistical purposes one of the health conditions on the certificate is chosen as the 'underlying cause of death'. The underlying cause of death is defined as the health condition or event that started the train of events leading to death and is worked out according to rules from the World Health Organisation (WHO). COVID-19 is the underlying cause of death in around 92% of deaths where it was mentioned on the death certificate. The UK followed the WHO rules, same as everyone else. ONS People still get worked up by the fact the death certificate mentions covid even though the cause of death was a brain tumour (which is also on the certificate). Edited November 19, 2023 by Genie 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted November 19, 2023 Share Posted November 19, 2023 Who'd have thought sexism and conspiracy theory beliefs would go hand in hand. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thug Posted November 19, 2023 Share Posted November 19, 2023 11 minutes ago, Genie said: It is The UK followed the WHO rules, same as everyone else. ONS People still get worked up by the fact the death certificate mentions covid even though the cause of death was a brain tumour (which is also on the certificate). Where does it say that you MUST write covid 19 on the death certificate if tested positive within 28 days? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted November 19, 2023 Share Posted November 19, 2023 1 minute ago, Thug said: Where does it say that you MUST write covid 19 on the death certificate if tested positive within 28 days? If you click the link it’s the title of the article, and explains it in detail Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thug Posted November 19, 2023 Share Posted November 19, 2023 Just now, Genie said: If you click the link it’s the title of the article, and explains it in detail You’re misunderstanding the article. Read it again. And once again, the doctor decides what to put in the death certificate, no one else. There is no requirement to put covid 19 on the death certificate if the doctor does not believe it to have any relevance at all to the death. Quote Doctors are under a duty to complete the MCCD as accurately as possible. The inclusion of COVID-19 in any part of the MCCD is a matter for the doctor completing the form and there should be no expectation or pressure placed upon them to include or exclude it during the pandemic period. https://www.gmc-uk.org/news/news-archive/joint-statement-on-death-certification-during-the-covid-19-pandemic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted November 19, 2023 Share Posted November 19, 2023 5 minutes ago, Thug said: You’re misunderstanding the article. Read it again. And once again, the doctor decides what to put in the death certificate, no one else. There is no requirement to put covid 19 on the death certificate if the doctor does not believe it to have any relevance at all to the death. https://www.gmc-uk.org/news/news-archive/joint-statement-on-death-certification-during-the-covid-19-pandemic Ok, the doctor can decide not to mention Covid if he/she thinks it’s not relevant. The discussion here this morning however is the suggestion that doctors are saying someone died of/with Covid when they didn’t have it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thug Posted November 19, 2023 Share Posted November 19, 2023 2 minutes ago, Genie said: Ok, the doctor can decide not to mention Covid if he/she thinks it’s not relevant. The discussion here this morning however is the suggestion that doctors are saying someone died of/with Covid when they didn’t have it. Indeed. But as part of any general discussion if there are inaccuracies being posted, it is important to correct them, otherwise people will go away believing disinformation. For example, if I now write that nurses can complete death certificates - I would expect someone to correct me even though it has no bearing on the current discussion. Hope that makes sense 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted November 19, 2023 Share Posted November 19, 2023 1 hour ago, DCJonah said: Who'd have thought sexism and conspiracy theory beliefs would go hand in hand. Dont take this off topic please Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted November 19, 2023 Share Posted November 19, 2023 4 hours ago, Genie said: They were testing everyone in hospital regularly. I know a few people that were in hospital during the pandemic and they all caught covid whilst in hospital. They were testing that im not disputing im disputing where theh consultants were trying to enforce her death as covid when it had nothing to do with covid. (Checked with my aunty she only had covid once and thats was a couple months before she was admitted with minor symptoms) 3 hours ago, foreveryoung said: My Mrs is a nurse and on the frontline during Covid. Any death of an older person who died of natural causes or was put down as Covid related. Anyone who had covid, but possible died of organ falier or alike was put down as a covid death. The figures you read in the media are way off, anyone who was on the frontline has many stories to tell about Covid times you won't read in the media. People are so nieve to the reality, example. " This lady has just past away while we have been rushing about, someone forgot to check on her". "Just put it down as Covid". I have a few friends in trauma and orthopaedic that was working in the wards who told me similar. These people were pro vaccines too so i have no reason to not believe them. Only they know the reason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted November 19, 2023 Share Posted November 19, 2023 4 hours ago, sidcow said: I don't hate people who don't get vaccinated. I just think they're **** idiots. And I don't mean that in a flippant way. I genuinely from the bottom of the heart think they're idiots. I literally have no opinion. Up to them what they do. Its like ja y z says i have 99 problems and a non vaccinated person isnt one of them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thug Posted November 19, 2023 Share Posted November 19, 2023 I don’t think there’s a conspiracy at all to be honest. Death certificates when completed (in hospital particularly) are just one of those things that gets delegated to someone to complete. Often done without proper care or attention to detail, as quickly as possible, with the minimum amount of thought. Even more so because during the pandemic they allowed doctors that were not looking after the patient that died to complete them. Inaccurate death certificates are borne out of laziness (or time pressure) rather than conspiracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fightoffyour Posted November 19, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted November 19, 2023 Even the car crash example, seems pointless perhaps but it might’ve had value down the line if there seemed to be an increase in such accidents and it was determined from that that the virus was causing feinting incidents or lapses of concentration for instance. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugeley Villa Posted November 19, 2023 Share Posted November 19, 2023 9 hours ago, fruitvilla said: Were hospitals overwhelmed or not? They already were on verge anyway so when Covid came it tipped it over the edge so not really a valid point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fruitvilla Posted November 19, 2023 Share Posted November 19, 2023 47 minutes ago, Rugeley Villa said: They already were on verge anyway so when Covid came it tipped it over the edge so not really a valid point Are you speaking for Canada and the US as well? If not then I think I do have a point. We don't run our hospitals with tonnes of extra capacity for obvious reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugeley Villa Posted November 19, 2023 Share Posted November 19, 2023 6 minutes ago, fruitvilla said: Are you speaking for Canada and the US as well? If not then I think I do have a point. We don't run our hospitals with tonnes of extra capacity for obvious reasons. I was on about UK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted November 20, 2023 Share Posted November 20, 2023 The Covid enquiry details really make my blood boil. Testimony after testimony that Johnson and Hancock were out of control, useless, absent, arrogant, broken when thousands of lives and livelihoods were in the line. They really should have both been relieved of their responsibilities a long, long time ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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