Generic Virus Thread

[fruitvilla]

@Thug Not exactly my point though.

[Genie]

Just now, Thug said:

I think @Rugeley Villa was making the point that the reporting of covid 19 on the death certificate was often made when it actually may not have been a direct cause or even a contributing factor to death.

This was always the problem, how do you determine how much of a factor covid played in someone’s death? Most places reported deaths with covid, rather than due to covid.

[Thug]

18 minutes ago, fruitvilla said:

@Thug Not exactly my point though.

No, you’re right.

I prob chose the wrong message to reply to.

[Thug]

19 minutes ago, Genie said:

This was always the problem, how do you determine how much of a factor covid played in someone’s death? Most places reported deaths with covid, rather than due to covid.

Yh, it’s very difficult.  I think the stock response at that point was if they had it, put it down.

Your last sentence is interesting though, I’d not seen that, but you may well be right.  Probably didn’t pay enough attention to it and didn’t notice.

[Seat68]

Are we really back here?

[Genie]

4 minutes ago, Thug said:

Yh, it’s very difficult.  I think the stock response at that point was if they had it, put it down.

Your last sentence is interesting though, I’d not seen that, but you may well be right.  Probably didn’t pay enough attention to it and didn’t notice.

I think if a positive covid test was recorded within 30 days of the death then it was recorded as “with” covid but not due to covid.

[Rugeley Villa]

1 hour ago, fruitvilla said:

Fair enough ... but having a whackload of people in hospital with COVID putting a strain on other illnesses and emergencies is not desirable, is it? Here's a nice link giving hospitalizations per million for Canada, the US and the UK. You can add and subtract as you wish. UK has not reported any data in the last while. Canada has a relatively high number at the moment. Is it an unwanted strain of the health system?

Your Grandad sadly was taking up room that might have saved somebody else's (non-COVID related) life.
Again, it's not about you or even your Grandad, it's about the system/community.

I agree Covid had massive strains on the hospitals and healthcare which we are probably still feeling the knock on effect of to this day . I’m not saying Covid wasn’t a problem I just think there was too much fear mongering which is what is expected in this age .

[Rugeley Villa]

Oh and by the way although the vaccines weren’t fully effective they did a great job and was certainly a break through in terms of what we can come up with in a short space of time. 

[fruitvilla]

23 minutes ago, Rugeley Villa said:

I agree Covid had massive strains on the hospitals and healthcare which we are probably still feeling the knock on effect of to this day . I’m not saying Covid wasn’t a problem I just think there was too much fear mongering which is what is expected in this age .

And if we are community minded then here is a reason in general to take vaccines. 

What I don't understand is this so-called fearmongering. Were hospitals overwhelmed or not? Is it a concern or not? The UK's early response was particularly ineffective around the winter of 20/21.

[sidcow]

5 hours ago, Rugeley Villa said:

. I think a lot of the deaths were manipulated towards it being covid when it wasn’t.

Whoa.  That's an off the scale accusation. 

I'm certain there are parts of the established media which would be all over that if there was even a glimmer of truth. 

[NurembergVillan]

6 hours ago, Thug said:

Even minor differences between chemical compounds can have drastically different results.  Or even other ingredients used in the manufacturing process.

There was a drug called ranitidine first used in the 70s, and continued to be a very common h2 receptor antagonist prescribed right up until 2019 when it was removed from the market due to safety concerns with a component being carcinogenic.

You're absolutely right, of course, but one of the big factors to be often overlooked is that the examples given are almost always medications (like Ranitidine) rather than immunisations. To the best of my knowledge, only one vaccine has ever had long-term side effects (and I can't remember the name right now - sorry!) and that, again from memory, was over 100 years ago.

When the Covid vaccines were rolled out the most common argument related to Thalidomide, but that was a treatment for morning sickness and not a vaccine.

1 hour ago, Rugeley Villa said:

Oh and by the way although the vaccines weren’t fully effective they did a great job and was certainly a break through in terms of what we can come up with in a short space of time. 

I guess that depends on what constitutes "fully effective". It certainly didn't completely prevent everyone from getting it, but it definitely reduced the symptoms and the spread.

That's the thing with vaccines - it's hard to say exactly how effective they've been for an individual because you don't know if they've been exposed to the virus or how they would've managed without the jab.

The best description I heard at the time was that the Covid vaccine is like a bulletproof vest - it doesn't stop you from getting shot, but it massively increases your chances of survival.

[sidcow]

 

[luckyeddie]

2 hours ago, Rugeley Villa said:

Oh and by the way although the vaccines weren’t fully effective they did a great job and was certainly a break through in terms of what we can come up with in a short space of time. 

This is also another reason some people refused the vaccine. Ideally, they take between 10-15 years to create, test and refine, whereas this one was available in around 12 months. Some people with previous negative reactions to vaccines didn't want to take the risk (although this probably accounted for a very small percentage of people not having the vaccine).

[fruitvilla]

5 hours ago, luckyeddie said:

Ideally, they take between 10-15 years to create, test and refine, whereas this one was available in around 12 months

Interesting! Next year's vaccine was developed ten to fifteen years ago.

[Rugeley Villa]

6 hours ago, NurembergVillan said:

You're absolutely right, of course, but one of the big factors to be often overlooked is that the examples given are almost always medications (like Ranitidine) rather than immunisations. To the best of my knowledge, only one vaccine has ever had long-term side effects (and I can't remember the name right now - sorry!) and that, again from memory, was over 100 years ago.

When the Covid vaccines were rolled out the most common argument related to Thalidomide, but that was a treatment for morning sickness and not a vaccine.

I guess that depends on what constitutes "fully effective". It certainly didn't completely prevent everyone from getting it, but it definitely reduced the symptoms and the spread.

That's the thing with vaccines - it's hard to say exactly how effective they've been for an individual because you don't know if they've been exposed to the virus or how they would've managed without the jab.

The best description I heard at the time was that the Covid vaccine is like a bulletproof vest - it doesn't stop you from getting shot, but it massively increases your chances of survival.

The protection it gave people wore off quicker than expected but they certainly did a job and massively helped decrease the amount of deaths and infections. I’ve got no problem with the vaccines and how they worked.

[Rugeley Villa]

6 hours ago, sidcow said:

Whoa.  That's an off the scale accusation. 

I'm certain there are parts of the established media which would be all over that if there was even a glimmer of truth. 

I’ve explained earlier what I meant by this. Some deaths were put down as Covid when Covid was secondary not the main cause of death 

[Rugeley Villa]

7 hours ago, fruitvilla said:

And if we are community minded then here is a reason in general to take vaccines. 

What I don't understand is this so-called fearmongering. Were hospitals overwhelmed or not? Is it a concern or not? The UK's early response was particularly ineffective around the winter of 20/21.

There was fear mongering by the press. Then you’d have politicians telling us what may happen then going out partying in groups. I’m not saying it wasn’t serious I know of young ish people that died from it although chances were you were going to get a mild case from it. 

[Rugeley Villa]

5 hours ago, luckyeddie said:

This is also another reason some people refused the vaccine. Ideally, they take between 10-15 years to create, test and refine, whereas this one was available in around 12 months. Some people with previous negative reactions to vaccines didn't want to take the risk (although this probably accounted for a very small percentage of people not having the vaccine).

Yeah that’s one of the main issues I heard spouted by people. My understanding was that these were different circumstances and people from all around the world were working on this vaccine 24/7 to try and get it available. Think I’ve had my two vaccines then had my booster . 

[fruitvilla]

14 minutes ago, Rugeley Villa said:

There was fear mongering by the press. Then you’d have politicians telling us what may happen then going out partying in groups. I’m not saying it wasn’t serious I know of young ish people that died from it although chances were you were going to get a mild case from it

Were hospitals overwhelmed or not?

[Demitri_C]

16 hours ago, Thug said:

4) lack of safety data - without the conspiracy theories.

5) perceived previous bad experience 

6) exercising your right to make an informed decision.

7) taking a calculated (and selfish) risk by relying on herd immunity to keep you safe.

Absolutely and a well balanced argument not just because its one sided and you hate people that didnt get vaccine.

My position which i have said on a host of occasions is anyone that wants it get it be safe. But those that dont know the risk.  They are grown ups they can make the decision themselves. Im not going to judge them.

Covids history clearly its not a threat anymore hence why they dont offer it anymore so we even talking about things that happened years ago?