nick76 Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 4 hours ago, Demitri_C said: If they really want to cancel sesson then i think fairest way to decide promotion relegation is to have the top three of the championship vs the bottom three in either a one off game or two legged at each home ground so for example Norwich would play Leeds We would play Wba Bournmouth would play Fulham If it was two legged second leg would be for the pl side The winners of those games get pl place Think this is a much fairer process if your cancelling a season As for us, why are we there. Surely we'd have to play our game in hand first and then who the bottom three are then would have a play off situation. If that's us then fine. What if it had been the other way around and all teams had played 29 games and we had played 30 (and dont laugh) but we had won one of them. We would now be on 28 points and safe and Watford in the bottom three. That wouldnt have been fair on Watford either as they couldve argued without that game we would be in the relegation zone and not them. You cant play a playoff type scenario (or relegated based on current league placing) based on unequal games played. (Not that I think you can relegate anyway without a full season 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick76 Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 5 minutes ago, tinker said: This is the way to go, Sheffield Utd should play us at Villa Park behind closed doors. You are onto a loser there because if Sheff Utd win they will take Man U's 5th place and european place and will not be allowed and nobody is going to pee off Man U, the golden child. Then what happens? let's say it did get played. Are you then going to relegate the bottom three? and promote who....let's say the top two from the championship. Who will be the third because it generally isnt third place team...it's a playoff. Then what about the lower leagues. One simple game doesnt solve this problem, it just creates another problem as bad! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 17 hours ago, Nabby said: I wonder also if legally not relegating teams is a better position for the PL than relegating and dealing with legal challenges. I wouldn't think legal has much of a strong footing in such unprecedented times, i guess it depends on the options.....and Government directives. I would be surprised if the legal documents, cover a scenario like this. I also think what other countries do, will have a bearing on what is reasonable from our point of view. very tricky though and lots of scenarios. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinker Posted April 25, 2020 VT Supporter Share Posted April 25, 2020 Just now, nick76 said: You are onto a loser there because if Sheff Utd win they will take Man U's 5th place and european place and will not be allowed and nobody is going to pee off Man U, the golden child. Then what happens? let's say it did get played. Are you then going to relegate the bottom three? and promote who....let's say the top two from the championship. Who will be the third because it generally isnt third place team...it's a playoff. Then what about the lower leagues. One simple game doesnt solve this problem, it just creates another problem as bad! Play offs go an as usual once all the teams have played the same amount of games. All games behind closed doors. Theres no easy answer but this is the fairest way i can see. It would not be fair to relegate teams who have not played the same amount of games as the rest . Like wise promotion. As for Man U , tough luck and anyway Sheffield utd would not win against us , no way once we have Mc Ginn back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 (edited) 19 minutes ago, nick76 said: You are onto a loser there because if Sheff Utd win they will take Man U's 5th place and european place and will not be allowed and nobody is going to pee off Man U, the golden child. Then what happens? let's say it did get played. Are you then going to relegate the bottom three? and promote who....let's say the top two from the championship. Who will be the third because it generally isnt third place team...it's a playoff. Then what about the lower leagues. One simple game doesnt solve this problem, it just creates another problem as bad! That game in hand could be our trump card...in terms of uncertainty....if we win it we won't be in the bottom 3, if we lose, or draw,we will...that could be important in the decision making. If Villa have an option, i wouldn't be too quick to play it, unless the whole programme is to be completed, then we have no choice. Edited April 25, 2020 by TRO 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick76 Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 1 hour ago, villalad21 said: Won't be us if we continue our usual 2 goals conceded per game ratio. I'm glad you dont have to decide this, teams have bad runs, great runs, stay the same. Our two goals conceded rate doesnt decide our relegation. We've had some big defeats in that as well. What matters is winning or losing. At this point I dont care if we lost 6 games 8-0, won 3 and drawn 1 very lucky and scrappy and somehow survived on 35 points. Sometimes a win sets you on a little run of victories, look at Southampton after they lost to Leicester 9-0. We have the goals to score, we just need to stop goals for a few games and some teams to have off days......plus we have a game in hand and 2 points from safety. So other teams are as bad as us. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 2 minutes ago, nick76 said: I'm glad you dont have to decide this, teams have bad runs, great runs, stay the same. Our two goals conceded rate doesnt decide our relegation. We've had some big defeats in that as well. What matters is winning or losing. At this point I dont care if we lost 6 games 8-0, won 3 and drawn 1 very lucky and scrappy and somehow survived on 35 points. Sometimes a win sets you on a little run of victories, look at Southampton after they lost to Leicester 9-0. We have the goals to score, we just need to stop goals for a few games and some teams to have off days......plus we have a game in hand and 2 points from safety. So other teams are as bad as us. You are right......winning is the key. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick76 Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 7 minutes ago, tinker said: Play offs go an as usual once all the teams have played the same amount of games. All games behind closed doors. Theres no easy answer but this is the fairest way i can see. It would not be fair to relegate teams who have not played the same amount of games as the rest . Like wise promotion. As for Man U , tough luck and anyway Sheffield utd would not win against us , no way once we have Mc Ginn back I just dont think this is fair, each team has played different quality of teams through the season hence why in a normal season teams play everybody twice, home and away. We are part way through that. It was just luck of the draw, for example if we hadnt had played Leicester away last game and played Palace at home (one of games left) and we had won that, we now wouldnt be in the bottom three. You can see that the bottom three has changed regularly over the last months of this year and now a snapshot point of an uncompleted season decides who gets relegated.....that's not fair. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick76 Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 3 minutes ago, TRO said: You are right......winning is the key. Exactly, how many times have Man Utd gone on to win the premiership crown in the final run in. How many times has a team in the bottom three clawed their way out of trouble in the run in to a season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick76 Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 16 minutes ago, TRO said: I wouldn't think legal has much of a strong footing in such unprecedented times, i guess it depends on the options.....and Government directives. I would be surprised if the legal documents, cover a scenario like this. I also think what other countries do, will have a bearing on what is reasonable from our point of view. very tricky though and lots of scenarios. I think the legal side of it is huge and hence why the PL havent done anything to date. T he money in football is huge and relegation is one of the key areas where money disparity is incredible and given that, whatever decision is made, this could be big legally. From what I understand re reference to the bottom half of the table only, that except for completing the season as normal the best scenario legally is to finish the season as is and no relegation or promotion. Obviously no legal challenge from the non-relegated teams and the Championship teams would only have real legal challenge possibilities from the top two. The playoffs are further competition that hasnt been completed and easily argued that teams down to 11th would be in that and thus are further away from conclusion of the season and have a weaker case. Therefore only Leeds and West Brom (and Fulham if they have a chance of top two finish - debateable). Easy argument is they havent completed the requirements for promotion and thus not earned a position and would only be coming up on sporting merit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 1 minute ago, nick76 said: Exactly, how many times have Man Utd gone on to win the premiership crown in the final run in. How many times has a team in the bottom three clawed their way out of trouble in the run in to a season. During the 80'/ 81' season despite winning the league, we still had detractors outside B6....many cited Ipswich as the best team, they were a fine side and was attractive on the eye.......The point was put to Bill Shankly by a journalist.....He said " Laddie any team that wins 26 games in a season, deserves it".......In a nutshell. Winning is what its all about.....but we all know to win, you have to display a plethora of attributes.....and defensive qualites is a crucial part of that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted April 25, 2020 VT Supporter Share Posted April 25, 2020 (edited) I wonder if the Government won't let gatherings of more than 10 people happen if the PL will move to "protect the integrity" of the league by playing 5 a side at local leisure centre. Obviously including rush back keeper and automatic penalty for over shoulder height. It would be a ratings winner and absolutely maintains the integrity of the league of course because it's just the same thing really isn't it? Edited April 25, 2020 by sidcow 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 Maybe the best way to sort out relegation could be a table of the bottom 10 on head to head games or on games won or goals scored Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 (edited) 5 hours ago, nick76 said: I think the legal side of it is huge and hence why the PL havent done anything to date. T he money in football is huge and relegation is one of the key areas where money disparity is incredible and given that, whatever decision is made, this could be big legally. From what I understand re reference to the bottom half of the table only, that except for completing the season as normal the best scenario legally is to finish the season as is and no relegation or promotion. Obviously no legal challenge from the non-relegated teams and the Championship teams would only have real legal challenge possibilities from the top two. The playoffs are further competition that hasnt been completed and easily argued that teams down to 11th would be in that and thus are further away from conclusion of the season and have a weaker case. Therefore only Leeds and West Brom (and Fulham if they have a chance of top two finish - debateable). Easy argument is they havent completed the requirements for promotion and thus not earned a position and would only be coming up on sporting merit. Maybe my point wasn't made very well Nick.....Legal implications will be central to any decision....but these are unprecedented times, i think there will be wiggle room in the legal arguments.....for instance, they will not be able to go against Government Directives if they too are passed in law....and any EFL or PL legal documentation, won' expect them to. it could be very tricky. Edited April 25, 2020 by TRO 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick76 Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 8 minutes ago, TRO said: Maybe my point wasn't made very well Nick.....Legal implications will be central to any decision....but these are unprecedented times, i think there will be wiggle room in the legal arguments.....for instance, they will not be able to go against Goverment Directives if they too are passed in law....and any EFL or PL legal documentation, won' expect them to. it could be very tricky. Fair point. I personally think they should just promote Leeds and West Brom, have 22 league season with 5 relegation places. That means the bottom three dont get harmed, the top two in the championship dont get harmed and broadcasters get all those extra revenue generating games. Seems a win win apart from the play off places, who I dont think have much of an argument anyway. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulC Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 The Premier League are in talks with the govt today to decide how best they can finish the season. Unless it proves impossible for them to finish it they will keep going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick76 Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 13 minutes ago, PaulC said: The Premier League are in talks with the govt today to decide how best they can finish the season. Unless it proves impossible for them to finish it they will keep going. The virus says ‘Hi’ Game over! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 Whatever solution we end up with is going to be unfair to someone, there is no good solution to this whatever they decide. Currently everyone is playing the waiting game trying to procrastinate long enough so that someone else is forced to make the decision for them and thus putting them with someone to at least partly blame on once the inevitable lawsuits starts coming. The PL can not afford to repay the TV money they have received because the money are already spent on player salaries and agent fees. They need someone else take the fall. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulC Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 1 hour ago, nick76 said: Fair point. I personally think they should just promote Leeds and West Brom, have 22 league season with 5 relegation places. That means the bottom three dont get harmed, the top two in the championship dont get harmed and broadcasters get all those extra revenue generating games. Seems a win win apart from the play off places, who I dont think have much of an argument anyway. The idea of expanding the Premier League next season when we wont even have a vaccine in place I find quite ridiculous tbh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick76 Posted April 25, 2020 Share Posted April 25, 2020 3 minutes ago, PaulC said: The idea of expanding the Premier League next season when we wont even have a vaccine in place I find quite ridiculous tbh Why? You are getting into material insignificance if you play a full season or an expanded season....you either play a full fixture list of 380 games or 420 games. Either is too many without a vaccine but in terms of material difference it's not much between the two. If it was the difference between 50 games and 300 games then I see your point but at the levels we are talking about materiality has gone out the window between 380 and 420 games if you decide to play a full season next season anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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