Selling Villa Park?

[OutByEaster?]

2 minutes ago, blandy said:

Yes, all of that is true. The issue isn’t the accounting ruse, or the behaviour of the current owners. The issue for me is the possibility, or risk, of future ownership behaviour. An accounting ruse to get round having broken FFP rules is one thing, I’m really talking about separating the assets of the club from the club. That then almost invites trouble down the line. If our owners transfer the ownership between their various companies and later, following rule changes, or promotion, or increased revenues buy it back, re-transfer it back to being part of the football club business then fine. Were being, apparently, forced to do that because of our (allleged) breaking of sustainability rules. Derby did it, others have or will, now it’s the latest get out of FFP rule breaking jail ruse. It’s almost nailed on that one or more clubs will suffer unforeseen consequences for doing it. It’ll destroy at least one club, I’d wager.

Yes, but if they want trouble down the line, they can do this down the line. I get that this would make that easier in the future, but it'd be pretty easy for them in the future anyway.

Which isn't to say I'd rather they didn't do it at all. I'd much prefer for us to remain as simple as possible, it makes it easier for us to understand how the club is being run and why.

[Jareth]

Should sell shares in the ground to fans

[MikeMcKenna]

1 hour ago, OutByEaster? said:

Yes, but if they want trouble down the line, they can do this down the line. I get that this would make that easier in the future, but it'd be pretty easy for them in the future anyway.

Which isn't to say I'd rather they didn't do it at all. I'd much prefer for us to remain as simple as possible, it makes it easier for us to understand how the club is being run and why.

I havent yet an opinion either way but in truth wonder how many fans would accept kicking off next season with a 12 point deduction, a depleted squad and either mid-table mediocrity or relegation? It isnt just that its an accounting ruse but as Pete suggests these types of deals often lead to unintended consequences. Several major care groups have gone bust because they sold their property and leased back. At the moment ownership of the club and VP would be in the same hands, but what if we have a couple of bad seasons, they get bored, offload the club and retain the ground?

 

[blandy]

1 hour ago, OutByEaster? said:

Yes, but if they want trouble down the line, they can do this down the line. I get that this would make that easier in the future, but it'd be pretty easy for them in the future anyway.

Of course, any ownership, if of bad intention, could lead a club into real trouble whether or not the club and the ground are owned by separate entities. It's absolutely clear from their actions to date that our owners are acting diligently and carefully and in the best interests of the club. Their record is basically unimpeachable to date. I've no reason to think that will change.

The concern, in general for football clubs, is that should the club ownership and the ground ownership not be controlled by the same person(s) conflict may arise. Where that happens the result is universally bad. Coventry, Charlton, Palace, Brighton....etc.

As such, splitting the ownership is something I don't like.

In the current instance and specific to Villa, if this were to happen to avoid FFP penalties, then it's arguably the least bad short term means of doing so, from a footballing perspective. But it is short term and not without longer term consequences, and furthermore the underlying issues won't go away without other steps being taken. It's a gamble. Assuming good interntions, the gamble is we go up, stabilise and then buy back the ground in a situation where the book loss from doing so does not breach any rules (the Premier League doesn't have the same rules as the EFL re sustainability. But it's a gamble and has potential adverse consequences, as I see it.

[DaveAV1]

It’s good that we are now discussing plans to get around ffp, whereas less than 12 months ago we were desperately worried about the very existence of Aston Villa. Whilst I think someone would have eventually come in to save the club, we have quite definitely fallen on our feet. Proving once and for all, God is definitely a Villa fan. 

[Mazrim]

They don't need the cash, the club needs income to fuel its ambitions. There's no way they will let VP slip out of their control. So if this does happen, it will be exploiting a loophole or opportunity to put money into the club to satisfy the rules.

I'm not worried about it at all. Ask yourself why they would do this and if you believe their intentions are noble. They haven't given me any reason to doubt them yet.

[AvfcRigo82]

4 minutes ago, Mazrim said:

They don't need the cash, the club needs income to fuel its ambitions. There's no way they will let VP slip out of their control. So if this does happen, it will be exploiting a loophole or opportunity to put money into the club to satisfy the rules.

I'm not worried about it at all. Ask yourself why they would do this and if you believe their intentions are noble. They haven't given me any reason to doubt them yet.

Fair point raised..

But if it all went tits up, how much would it cost to buy our own stadium back.. and how long could that take?

I know it's business, but it's risky business if you ask me.

[DCJonah]

37 minutes ago, MikeMcKenna said:

I havent yet an opinion either way but in truth wonder how many fans would accept kicking off next season with a 12 point deduction, a depleted squad and either mid-table mediocrity or relegation? It isnt just that its an accounting ruse but as Pete suggests these types of deals often lead to unintended consequences. Several major care groups have gone bust because they sold their property and leased back. At the moment ownership of the club and VP would be in the same hands, but what if we have a couple of bad seasons, they get bored, offload the club and retain the ground?

 

I don't get why these 2 wealthy, experienced sports club owners bought the club if promotion this season is as desperate as you've made out.

It makes no sense. 

[Mazrim]

55 minutes ago, AvfcRigo82 said:

Fair point raised..

But if it all went tits up, how much would it cost to buy our own stadium back.. and how long could that take?

I know it's business, but it's risky business if you ask me.

Buy back from who? The owners of Aston Villa would still ultimately own Villa Park. That's my point. Its financial smoke and mirrors, selling your own assets to yourself to raise money. Rather than just ploughing another £100m in.

They're not going to sell VP outside of their control. It makes no sense.

[MikeMcKenna]

3 hours ago, DCJonah said:

I don't get why these 2 wealthy, experienced sports club owners bought the club if promotion this season is as desperate as you've made out.

It makes no sense. 

Where did I mention they were ‘desperate’ for promotion this season? I suggested, as has happened elsewhere, that after some bad seasons they may get bored and move on. 

[snowychap]

10 hours ago, terrytini said:

So, I repeat, what is it that you would find troubling about NSWE Ltd owning the ground rather than AVFC Ltd, or any of the other Companies ?

I think the issue is tying it in with the idea of selling the ground to lease it back to the Club in order to find a way around FFP. In order to do that then any sale would need to be outside the Villa group of companies (whatever the name of the parent company is) surely?

I'm not saying that they're doing or even contemplating anything of the sort, btw. I just saw the thing about the company name and wondered whether that was the source for the story.

[snowychap]

3 hours ago, Mazrim said:

selling your own assets to yourself

Villa Park is an asset of the company that owns it. It may be seen as an asset of the shareholders via the medium of that company that they own but it is still an important distinction to bear in mind.

Edited May 18, 2019 by snowychap

[DCJonah]

1 hour ago, MikeMcKenna said:

Where did I mention they were ‘desperate’ for promotion this season? I suggested, as has happened elsewhere, that after some bad seasons they may get bored and move on. 

Just the impression given by selling all players and hoping for midtable. Why would they buy the club if their investment is so dependent on a massive challenge within 12 months. 

[PieFacE]

7 hours ago, blandy said:

What I’m trying to demonstrate is that if Wes and Nas split the ground from the club, and then decide they’ve lost interest in villa, the club could be bought by someone with mad plans for his new NEC  mega bowl (say) so he doesn’t want to buy the ground, only the club. Wes and Nas sell him the club, he has us playing at his new dome, it goes wrong, it’s not viable and there’s a broke club that doesn’t even own its own stadium. There are sadly many examples of clubs selling or not owning their grounds and then being in deep poo. Coventry, Brighton and others. As an idea it’s got huge drawbacks. It’s not guaranteed to go wrong, but it’s a risk. Not right now, not with good owners of good intent, but unfortunately these things can change over time. It’s far from risk free, i was trying to demonstrate one scenario to illustrate that.

Thanks for explaining. I just don't see a scenario where any of this is likely. If NSWE were selling Villa Park to a company that they didn't own then I'd be fully on board with what you're saying and would also share huge concerns. But in the grand scheme of things, this move means very little. 

[briny_ear]

On 17/05/2019 at 16:04, bannedfromHandV said:

Take a look at Coventry City

Think what happened at Coventry was a consequence of the nature of the company who “bought” them, not any specific deal on the ground, although obviously the ground has featured large in the drama. The lesson is don’t invite crooks to run your club.

[bannedfromHandV]

7 minutes ago, briny_ear said:

Think what happened at Coventry was a consequence of the nature of the company who “bought” them, not any specific deal on the ground, although obviously the ground has featured large in the drama. The lesson is don’t invite crooks to run your club.

Yep, but we’d be naive to assume our owners won’t ultimately fall into that category potentially.

[AvfcRigo82]

Whilst we are in a heavy and good debate, I am with @limpid on so far just some BS that's been printed in the press.

Either way, A nice move - a week before our Final!..  What next? Grealish off to Spurs as the next distraction to take the wind from our sails??

For me, I am shelfing this thread like the Summer Transfer thread until after PO final has taken place.

 

Edited May 18, 2019 by AvfcRigo82

[MikeMcKenna]

2 hours ago, DCJonah said:

Just the impression given by selling all players and hoping for midtable. Why would they buy the club if their investment is so dependent on a massive challenge within 12 months. 

Never said anything about ‘hoping’ for mid-table. I referred to the possibility of the squad being depleted if key loan players leave, Grealish is sold etc Which is possible if the owners cannot circumvent the FFP rules. 

Let’s just hope we get promoted, then the whole debate about VP being sold will be academic - cant wait to get out of this league! 

[MikeMcKenna]

4 minutes ago, AvfcRigo82 said:

Whilst we are in a heavy and good debate, I am with @limpid on so far just some BS that's been printed in the press.

Either way, A nice move - a week before our Final!..  What next? Grealish off to Spurs as the next distraction to take the wind from our sails??

For me, I am shelfing this thread like the Summer Transfer thread until after PO final has taken place.

 

I have no love for Murdochs papers, wish it was but I don’t think it is BS. As @snowychap states on page 2, a company named ‘NSWE Stadium Limited’ was formed on Friday. 

[AvfcRigo82]

8 minutes ago, MikeMcKenna said:

I have no love for Murdochs papers, wish it was but I don’t think it is BS. As @snowychap states on page 2, a company named ‘NSWE Stadium Limited’ was formed on Friday. 

Yeah, Snowy's comment did make worrying reading.

Still, going to avoid this thread until after PO final as I was feeling all euphoric until I came in and read this.