Racism in Football

[YouUnastanFren]

56 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

Let me ask a genuine question in reply. If you're right and there is no race issue for managers and coaches, then why aren't there more black managers and coaches given they make up a third of the playing population?

I know this wasn't directed to me and if I had to guess I'd say there is a high chance BAME managers don't get equal consideration for posts but I don't believe the percentage of BAME players would necessarily be reflected in the percentage of managers even if consideration for posts was equally given.

For a start, the pool of potential managers is not limited to former PL players, or even top level players at all. I don't think playing PL football is particularly useful for managing a PL side. Off the top of my head I'd say less than half of the current set played any top flight football in the top 5 leagues.

That said, I'd be in favour of a Rooney rule type thing just to increase the chances of proper consideration being given to BAME applicants.

Edited November 20, 2020 by YouUnastanFren

[Stevo985]

22 minutes ago, YouUnastanFren said:

I know this wasn't directed to me and if I had to guess I'd say there is a high chance BAME managers don't get equal consideration for posts but I don't believe the percentage of BAME players would necessarily be reflected in the percentage of managers even if consideration for posts was equally given.

For a start, the pool of potential managers is not limited to former PL players, or even top level players at all. I don't think playing PL football is particularly useful for managing a PL side. Off the top of my head I'd say less than half of the current set played any top flight football in the top 5 leagues.

That said, I'd be in favour of a Rooney rule type thing just to increase the chances of proper consideration being given to BAME applicants.

You wouldn't expect the percentages to match up exactly. But we're not talking about 9% vs 11%. We're talking about 5% vs 33%

[Keyblade]

6 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

You wouldn't expect the percentages to match up exactly. But we're not talking about 9% vs 11%. We're talking about 5% vs 33%

Yeah it's such a huge disparity that I would genuinely love to see a plausible explanation.

[HanoiVillan]

I think the point that some degree of perhaps largely unintentional racial bias is present in managerial hiring is pretty strongly evidence-based at this point. We don't just have managerial numbers to look at; captains are statistically more likely than the average player to become a manager, and black players are hugely under-represented as captains as well, one possible reason for which is (stereotyped) concern about the 'leadership skills' of black players.

When surveyed, black players often cite as reasons for not pursuing coaching or managerial careers that they have experienced either explicit or implicit racism during coaching courses, and that they perceive that mediocre white managers get better employment opportunities because so much managerial hiring is done through patronage networks.

[Stevo985]

7 hours ago, HanoiVillan said:

I think the point that some degree of perhaps largely unintentional racial bias is present in managerial hiring is pretty strongly evidence-based at this point. We don't just have managerial numbers to look at; captains are statistically more likely than the average player to become a manager, and black players are hugely under-represented as captains as well, one possible reason for which is (stereotyped) concern about the 'leadership skills' of black players.

When surveyed, black players often cite as reasons for not pursuing coaching or managerial careers that they have experienced either explicit or implicit racism during coaching courses, and that they perceive that mediocre white managers get better employment opportunities because so much managerial hiring is done through patronage networks.

Exactly. Like I said above, nobody is saying that chairmen are explicitly saying or thinking “I’m not hiring Sol Campbell because he’s black”

 

but there clearly is an implicit issue in the game with a lack of black players going into coaching and management

[PussEKatt]

Maybe black managers should start their management careers in League1.If they show that they are good enough I am sure a bigger team will come in for them.What I mean by this is that if they cant get a chance in the PL then if they really want to be managers then they should start lower down.

[Zatman]

8 minutes ago, PussEKatt said:

Maybe black managers should start their management careers in League1.If they show that they are good enough I am sure a bigger team will come in for them.What I mean by this is that if they cant get a chance in the PL then if they really want to be managers then they should start lower down.

so why only black managers have to do this? Gerrard and Lampard didnt

[The_Rev]

10 minutes ago, PussEKatt said:

Maybe black managers should start their management careers in League1.If they show that they are good enough I am sure a bigger team will come in for them.What I mean by this is that if they cant get a chance in the PL then if they really want to be managers then they should start lower down.

I'm trying and failing to unpack this statement.  Black managers don't really get gigs in the lower leagues either.   It's not about high profile people like Sol Campbell complaining that he cant get hired, it's a systemic thing.  You'd think it would be changing by now, black players started breaking though in big numbers over 40 years ago and the first generation are all pushing retirement now.  The current generation who've just finished playing are rightfully making a noise about it and hopefully the next wave of people will feel like they are getting a fair shot at every level.  It's tragic that we are still talking about it though. 

[PussEKatt]

What I meant was that if they cant get a managers job in the PL then try lower down.I mean players do it.If I wanted to play in the PL and I wasnt good enough then I would try a club in a lower division.

[VillaChris]

Paul Ince actually did.

Start at Macc at right at bottom of league two (as Sol Campbell did). Then moved onto Milton Keynes who he promoted from league two.

Instead of then going to championship and developing more Blackburn picked him up (so probably getting the "Gerrard and Lampard" treatment given his playing status) but he was out of his depth and sacked after six months. After that he still got jobs back at Milton Keynes, Notts County and Blackpool in championship so certainly Ince is one black manager who did get many chances at numerous levels.

Ultimately it's the job you can actually do once you get to top level. Big Same can in straight after Ince and comfortably kept Blackburn up and then they finished 9th or 10th the next season so that's the reason he keeps getting prem jobs and Paul Ince couldn't.

I'll say him again though, Chris Hughton keeps getting decent jobs as he's shown he's as capable of a Pulis or Warnock in taking over a struggling championship team and getting them challenging for promotion within 18 months. Did it at Brighton and will do the same at Forest given they have a good budget.

It's just up to managers to do something, Chris Ramsey and Terry Connor won about 2 games combined in premier league so no one can be surprised when they don't get offered the permanent jobs surely? (just checked and Ramsey did actually get the QPR job but left them mid table in championship when he left in the November of following season).

[PussEKatt]

On 21/11/2020 at 21:10, Zatman said:

so why only black managers have to do this? Gerrard and Lampard didnt

Because Gerrard and Lampard were good enough for the PL to start with.

DS is a good example.He started with Barnsley, now he is managing a PL team

[Sam-AVFC]

1 hour ago, PussEKatt said:

Because Gerrard and Lampard were good enough for the PL to start with.

Is that based on anything other than hindsight? 

[Stevo985]

On 21/11/2020 at 13:00, PussEKatt said:

Maybe black managers should start their management careers in League1.If they show that they are good enough I am sure a bigger team will come in for them.What I mean by this is that if they cant get a chance in the PL then if they really want to be managers then they should start lower down.

Have you got any evidence at all that black managers are unwilling to do this?

Or is this victim blaming nonsense?

[VillaChris]

26 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

Have you got any evidence at all that black managers are unwilling to do this?

Or is this victim blaming nonsense?

Dwight Yorke seems to always be going on about being our next manager whenever vacancy has been available in last 5 years. He retired at Sunderland so I'd be shocked if they didn't consider his application next time they don't have a manager. Trinidad I'm sure would happily have him given he's their greatest ever player. Many managers have got decent jobs off a good showing at international level (Lawrie Sanchez got a prem job and he didn't even take Northern Ireland to major tournament, same for Mark Hughes) so that's another route.

[Stevo985]

27 minutes ago, VillaChris said:

Dwight Yorke seems to always be going on about being our next manager whenever vacancy has been available in last 5 years. He retired at Sunderland so I'd be shocked if they didn't consider his application next time they don't have a manager. Trinidad I'm sure would happily have him given he's their greatest ever player. Many managers have got decent jobs off a good showing at international level (Lawrie Sanchez got a prem job and he didn't even take Northern Ireland to major tournament, same for Mark Hughes) so that's another route.

Dwight Yorke doesn't represent all black managers/coaches. His self entitlement isn't evidence of a lack of a race problem.

In general black managers would be very willing to work their way up

[Keyblade]

9 hours ago, PussEKatt said:

Because Gerrard and Lampard were good enough for the PL to start with.

DS is a good example.He started with Barnsley, now he is managing a PL team

What was the body of work that pointed to this before their appointment? One was a youth coach for about 18 months, the other got a Championship job straight away and failed to get his team promoted. 

[PussEKatt]

FFS,I am not running down black players.I am just saying that 

1 - You have to start somewhere ( usually not at the top )

2 - I know I am not good enough to play in the Pl BUT maybe if I went to New Zealand or Fiji I would be good enough for their PL, then If I was any good I am sure I would get spottedby a scout and given my chance in a better league.Maybe wouldbe black managers should try this approach ?!

[Keyblade]

2 hours ago, PussEKatt said:

FFS,I am not running down black players.I am just saying that 

1 - You have to start somewhere ( usually not at the top )

2 - I know I am not good enough to play in the Pl BUT maybe if I went to New Zealand or Fiji I would be good enough for their PL, then If I was any good I am sure I would get spottedby a scout and given my chance in a better league.Maybe wouldbe black managers should try this approach ?!

The question is, why is your suggestion directed solely at black managers? This applies to everyone. You think they never thought of this? Unless you think black managers are all applying for PL jobs and nothing else?

[HanoiVillan]

35 minutes ago, Keyblade said:

The question is, why is your suggestion directed solely at black managers? This applies to everyone. You think they never thought of this? Unless you think black managers are all applying for PL jobs and nothing else?

As an accusation, it just seems to be based on comments made by Dwight Yorke - who is, let's face it, a distinctly odd individual - and some very old comments made by Sol Campbell before he literally went and did the thing people are asking black managers to do.

As I tried to point out in the thread previously, the problem begins long before the *actual* managerial recruitment process, and is the result of a long chain of facts, from fewer black captains to fewer black people taking coaching badges.

[PussEKatt]

21 hours ago, Keyblade said:

The question is, why is your suggestion directed solely at black managers? This applies to everyone. You think they never thought of this? Unless you think black managers are all applying for PL jobs and nothing else?

Because the thread is called "racism in football"........duh