Racism in Football

[Stevo985]

23 hours ago, PussEKatt said:

FFS,I am not running down black players.I am just saying that 

1 - You have to start somewhere ( usually not at the top )

2 - I know I am not good enough to play in the Pl BUT maybe if I went to New Zealand or Fiji I would be good enough for their PL, then If I was any good I am sure I would get spottedby a scout and given my chance in a better league.Maybe wouldbe black managers should try this approach ?!

But this is suggesting black managers aren't aware of this approach, or are unwilling to try it. Why? Don't you think they've already thought of this, or are you suggesting that black managers all apply for jobs that are too good for them so never get employed?

[Keyblade]

2 hours ago, PussEKatt said:

Because the thread is called "racism in football"........duh

Well yes. Which makes it sound like you don't think the issue is racism but rather the fact that black managers aren't applying for lower league jobs.

[PussEKatt]

23 hours ago, Stevo985 said:

But this is suggesting black managers aren't aware of this approach, or are unwilling to try it. Why? Don't you think they've already thought of this, or are you suggesting that black managers all apply for jobs that are too good for them so never get employed?

I am suggesting that black managers do the same as players.Rooney started at Everton before going to a bigger club.Ashley Young,James Milner and Mark Allbrighton all went to better clubs ( at the time )Watkins,Cash and Taggert have all gone on to a bigger club.

[PussEKatt]

20 hours ago, Keyblade said:

Well yes. Which makes it sound like you don't think the issue is racism but rather the fact that black managers aren't applying for lower league jobs.

I live in Australia so I dont know if the issue is racism or not in the UK.All I am saying is that most players/managers start low and work up. 

[Stevo985]

43 minutes ago, PussEKatt said:

I am suggesting that black managers do the same as players.Rooney started at Everton before going to a bigger club.Ashley Young,James Milner and Mark Allbrighton all went to better clubs ( at the time )Watkins,Cash and Taggert have all gone on to a bigger club.

So I'll ask again, are you suggesting that Black Managers aren't already doing this?

What makes you think this entirely logical course of action hasn't occurred to them yet?

[PaulC]

I think its hard enough for any  Englishman to be a manager in the Premier League these days. You get the same cycle of manager all getting the top jobs. Chelsea took a chance on Lampard after one season at Derby and it seems to be paying off. Gerrard getting the Rangers is a big job but its a big fish in a small pond. 

[PussEKatt]

23 hours ago, Stevo985 said:

So I'll ask again, are you suggesting that Black Managers aren't already doing this?

What makes you think this entirely logical course of action hasn't occurred to them yet?

As I dont live in the UK I dont know what black managers are doing ( I on;y follow the Premier League and the Championship )

If black managers are already doing this then there can only be one answer, they are not good enough

[Stevo985]

Just now, PussEKatt said:

If black managers are already doing this then there can only be one answer, they are not good enough

No

[PussEKatt]

Well,if they are good enough then why are they not managing clubs ?

[Stevo985]

Just now, PussEKatt said:

Well,if they are good enough then why are they not managing clubs ?

Because, and stay with me here, black managers don't get the same opportunities as white managers.

You know, the entire theme of this conversation everyone has been having.

[PussEKatt]

9 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

Because, and stay with me here, black managers don't get the same opportunities as white managers.

 

If thats the case,then there definately is racism in football.End of thread.

[bannedfromHandV]

1 hour ago, Stevo985 said:

Because, and stay with me here, black managers don't get the same opportunities as white managers.

You know, the entire theme of this conversation everyone has been having.

I absolutely agree that there is racism in football because there is racism in society, so it’s a given as far as I’m concerned.

The lack of black Managers thing is an interesting one though because I think football is almost entirely results driven these days, there’s almost no room for personal points of view on morals and ethics, i.e. I don’t think most club owners would care what the colour of their managers’ skin is if they are successful.

But then it circles back to the whole point of whether or not those BAME persons get the chance to show they can be successful or not. It would be helpful to see real data around this, have all clubs record their interviewing activity for the next 2-3 years or something so that we can actually evaluate who is applying but also what they’re level of qualifications are (coaching badges) and experience.

Only then can people really start dissecting the issue, at the moment it just feels like finger in the air stuff and assumptions.

[tom_avfc]

21 hours ago, bannedfromHandV said:

I absolutely agree that there is racism in football because there is racism in society, so it’s a given as far as I’m concerned.

The lack of black Managers thing is an interesting one though because I think football is almost entirely results driven these days, there’s almost no room for personal points of view on morals and ethics, i.e. I don’t think most club owners would care what the colour of their managers’ skin is if they are successful.

But then it circles back to the whole point of whether or not those BAME persons get the chance to show they can be successful or not. It would be helpful to see real data around this, have all clubs record their interviewing activity for the next 2-3 years or something so that we can actually evaluate who is applying but also what they’re level of qualifications are (coaching badges) and experience.

Only then can people really start dissecting the issue, at the moment it just feels like finger in the air stuff and assumptions.

Surely the proof is in the lack of BAME managers and coaches at all levels of football. The under representation is evidence enough that there is an issue.

[bannedfromHandV]

7 minutes ago, tom_avfc said:

Surely the proof is in the lack of BAME managers and coaches at all levels of football. The under representation is evidence enough that there is an issue.

No it’s not, that’s the super simple way of looking at it, what is required is detailed data so that we can actually begin evaluating this at a level beyond assumption.

[tom_avfc]

Just now, bannedfromHandV said:

No it’s not, that’s the super simple way of looking at it, what is required is detailed data so that we can actually begin evaluating this at a level beyond assumption.

 But what are you trying to argue? That BAME individuals are not applying for the jobs? Or that white candidates are better than BAME candidates in almost every football manager interview process?

If neither of the above applies then the fact that the number of BAME managers in the premier league totals 1 out of 20 and the number of BAME managers in the football league totals 5 out of 72 is evidence alone.

Its a simplistic way of looking at it and evaluating it properly will allow us to deal with it in an effective way but it doesn’t need this evaluation to prove that it exists. It’s staring people right in the face and choosing to pretend it doesn’t exist is part of the problem.

[bannedfromHandV]

3 minutes ago, tom_avfc said:

 But what are you trying to argue? That BAME individuals are not applying for the jobs? Or that white candidates are better than BAME candidates in almost every football manager interview process?

If neither of the above applies then the fact that the number of BAME managers in the premier league totals 1 out of 20 and the number of BAME managers in the football league totals 5 out of 72 is evidence alone.

Its a simplistic way of looking at it and evaluating it properly will allow us to deal with it in an effective way but it doesn’t need this evaluation to prove that it exists. It’s staring people right in the face and choosing to pretend it doesn’t exist is part of the problem.

Yes, I would like to see the % of qualified individuals applying for jobs and at which clubs they are applying. 
 

It’s not that difficult a thing to understand surely, I like to know exactly what I’m getting angry about before I pick up the pitchfork and join the crowd.

 

It’s not always black and white.

[Davkaus]

3 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said:

 

 

It’s not always black and white.

Indeed, there's a lack of asian managers too.

[tom_avfc]

2 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said:

Yes, I would like to see the % of qualified individuals applying for jobs and at which clubs they are applying. 
 

It’s not that difficult a thing to understand surely, I like to know exactly what I’m getting angry about before I pick up the pitchfork and join the crowd.

 

It’s not always black and white.

You’re more than entitled to do that. I’d add that there’s no pitchfork and crowd involved. It’s a simple acknowledgment that there is an issue.

We’ll agree to disagree I guess. You never know there could be only 6.5% of applications from BAME candidates. I’d also add that your measurement of the problem would fail to take into account the fact that a number of potential BAME candidates are put off applying by the response they and others have received.

Its never going to be a cut and dry thing but I’d like to think that the majority of people can see that there is clearly an issue here. 

[PussEKatt]

Its not just in football.Look at the amount of black players in the NFL and the amount of black players in basketball in the US of A and then look at the percentage of black managers/coaches.Another point is the number of black quarterbacks i the NFL compared to the white quarterbacks.

[bannedfromHandV]

21 minutes ago, tom_avfc said:

You’re more than entitled to do that. I’d add that there’s no pitchfork and crowd involved. It’s a simple acknowledgment that there is an issue.

We’ll agree to disagree I guess. You never know there could be only 6.5% of applications from BAME candidates. I’d also add that your measurement of the problem would fail to take into account the fact that a number of potential BAME candidates are put off applying by the response they and others have received.

Its never going to be a cut and dry thing but I’d like to think that the majority of people can see that there is clearly an issue here. 

I’m not necessarily disputing that there is a problem, the evidence to date shows that but we now live in an age where actionable intelligence can be derived from data, let’s start using that and making it widely available for the public to access and dissect. 
 

Only then can the root of the problem be unearthed and addressed. There’s obviously a huge focus on this right now in society, and generally speaking that’s a good thing but only if we arrive at the right conclusions based on actual evidence rather than general perception.