Racism in Football

[ender4]

On 08/10/2020 at 13:41, Pelle said:

Yeah, that's really not strong enough a penalty. And just one person at that. That will count for nothing

I can't tell what a suitable penalty should be, but I think that people that are caught being racists like this should be forced to be educated. A thorough historical education on the subject and then some. Maybe that could teach these idiots why it's so stupid.

Shouldn’t it also be a police matter?

and surely they have ticketing information on every person that was in the ground?

[Genie]

3 hours ago, Zatman said:

So the evil Marcus Rashford has now set up a book club for disadvantaged children. I am sure the Daily Heil will find an issue with that

They will probably comment on the cost of the car he drives or like Raheem “flaunting his wealth” by buying his mum a house.

[Stevo985]

On 16/11/2020 at 17:32, Genie said:

The daily Mail have run a story about Marcus Rashford spending some of his wealth on property investments

To which he has responded 

Is this Marcus getting some of the treatment that another black footballer Raheem Sterling was subjected to?

Theres a clear undertone of “how dare he” and as it’s the daily Mail it’s more than likely deliberate.

He's invested his money into property.

It's a very sensible, intelligent investment. It's exactly what more footballers should do rather than splurging their future on parties and nonsense.

So no surprise the Mail have twisted it into a negative. And yes, I'll explicitly say it. It is 100% because he's black.

[Stevo985]

19 hours ago, Zatman said:

So the evil Marcus Rashford has now set up a book club for disadvantaged children. I am sure the Daily Heil will find an issue with that

"Overpaid flash footballer recklessly gambles fortune on virtue signalling book club during convenient time off with suspicious shoulder injury, leaving the national team to languish to a 2-0 defeat to Belgium without his support"

[YouUnastanFren]

SHAMELESS soccer diva Marcus Rashford SHUNS the entire nation in its hour of need to promote DEFORESTATION

[HanoiVillan]

He wants POOR KIDS to eat BOOKS??

[barry'sboots]

On 05/08/2019 at 01:26, DakotaVilla said:

Politicians have a lot of blame to take for the lies about the reasons for the erosion of living standards for all working class folk. 

 

Where is the evidence for the apparent erosion of living standards for working class??  Easy comment to make.  Hard comment to support I think?

[barry'sboots]

On 27/04/2019 at 14:16, Stevo985 said:

But again just because you’ve chosen one crap example doesn’t mean there isn’t an issue. 

I’d guess about 5% of managers in the football league are black. 

Its not explicit racism. But it’s obviously a race issue

I'll preface this by saying I am a middle aged white guy.  I have a number of business ventures, the main two of which are with one white partner and three Muslim partners, and in my previous business venture I had a Muslim partner for over 10 years and we are still good friends.  Suffice to say, I do not believe that I am racist.

The above comments and similar I have heard numerous times from quite a few black players and Kick it Out do annoy me somewhat, but maybe I am missing something so I'd be happy to be enlightened.

The percentage of black people in the UK is circa 3%, so a ratio of 5% is comfortably ahead of that?

The percentage of black players in the PL is circa 33%.  Are we discriminating against white players?  I don't think so.

In the 2017 African Nations only three of the teams had black managers.  Are their FA's racist?

Fulham, Leicester, Man City, Villa, Sheff U are all owned by BAME owners.  Are they all racist as none of them have a BAME manager?

There are only 8 English managers in the PL.  Should there be more English managers?

It is so easy to trot out the line that the FA and football is institutionally racist (and I do accept Greg Clarke didn't deliver the best dialogue), and it might be, but I do not believe that the fact that black managers only represent 5% of the manager population supports this?? 

[Keyblade]

4 minutes ago, barry'sboots said:

I'll preface this by saying I am a middle aged white guy.  I have a number of business ventures, the main two of which are with one white partner and three Muslim partners, and in my previous business venture I had a Muslim partner for over 10 years and we are still good friends.  Suffice to say, I do not believe that I am racist.

The above comments and similar I have heard numerous times from quite a few black players and Kick it Out do annoy me somewhat, but maybe I am missing something so I'd be happy to be enlightened.

The percentage of black people in the UK is circa 3%, so a ratio of 5% is comfortably ahead of that?

The percentage of black players in the PL is circa 33%.  Are we discriminating against white players?  I don't think so.

In the 2017 African Nations only three of the teams had black managers.  Are their FA's racist?

Fulham, Leicester, Man City, Villa, Sheff U are all owned by BAME owners.  Are they all racist as none of them have a BAME manager?

There are only 8 English managers in the PL.  Should there be more English managers?

It is so easy to trot out the line that the FA and football is institutionally racist (and I do accept Greg Clarke didn't deliver the best dialogue), and it might be, but I do not believe that the fact that black managers only represent 5% of the manager population supports this?? 

I think a more relevant comparison would be the 33% of black players rather than the overall population of black people in society. Considering the fact that managers overwhelmingly tend to be former players, it is a bit curious that so few of them are managers at the top levels. 

[barry'sboots]

Just now, Keyblade said:

I think a more relevant comparison would be the 33% of black players rather than the overall population of black people in society. Considering the fact that managers overwhelmingly tend to be former players, it is a bit curious that so few of them are managers at the top levels. 

Just because you play football it doesn't necessarily make you a good manager does it?  You can be a student of the game without playing, or without playing at a high standard - Jose Mourinho?  Its a very different skill set.

[Keyblade]

1 minute ago, barry'sboots said:

Just because you play football it doesn't necessarily make you a good manager does it?  You can be a student of the game without playing, or without playing at a high standard - Jose Mourinho?  Its a very different skill set.

Well yes. My point was Jose Mourinho types are very rare. Can you name any other manager in a similar mould?

[VillaChris]

You need one to come in, play amazing football and win a trophy and then other clubs will start appointing similar managers.

In all my time watching football it's simply how things work. Arsenal appoint unknown foreign manager in mid 90s who starts off amazingly and suddenly you have rivals doing it like Spurs with Christian Gross a year later.

Then Mourinho came in and did what he did and suddenly there was dash to Portugal to see who was the latest hotshot and Vilas-Boas turned up at Chelsea a few years later.

A few years ago there was a merry-go-round of old managers aswell with Pulis, Hodgson, Pardew and Big Sam all managing at the same time to try to keep their sides up.

Managerial appointment is a very reactionary business, mainly based on what rivals are doing.

Of course the limited numbers make it difficult but generally the managers given a chance haven't made much impact. Can remember Chris Ramsey getting in at QPR around January one season with them a point off 17th and they barely won a game in the run in, same for Terry Connor at Wolves. Hughton did better but produced uninspiring football at Norwich compared to what even Lambert did and was sacked. Very good in championship though which is why he keeps getting good jobs at that level so shows there's a market if you're capable whatever race.

Hasselbaink was doing really well at Burton but struggled at QPR and then sacked by Northampton a year later so that's pretty much ended his career in England like many white candidates who have similar spells.

Interesting that Eddie Newton has been assistant at some big clubs to Di Matteo (not here though) and he went and won a trophy at Trabzonspor so interested what sort of chance he gets in England when he returns given Paul Clement and Steve Clarke both got premier league jobs after long number 2 stints under big names.

I'm not sure there's a problem getting them into coaching staff, Liam Rosenior is highly rated at Derby and part of Rooney caretaker team for this weekend and pretty sure Andy Cole coached in th past before his health issues but there is a blockage from many of them moving up to being a number one.

Have a horrible feeling we'll still be having this debate in 2030.

[barry'sboots]

7 minutes ago, Keyblade said:

Well yes. My point was Jose Mourinho types are very rare. Can you name any other manager in a similar mould?

Roy Hodgson.

A number of other top PL managers had relatively very limited playing careers - Rafa Benitez, Jurgen Klopp, Arsene Wenger, Chris Wilder, Eddie Howe, Brendan Rodgers, Daniel Farke, Unai Emery whilst Sean Dyche, Graham Potter and Dean Smith were hardly superstars.  Bielsa also didn't have much of a playing career.

[VillaChris]

Nuno Espirito Santo was just a back up keeper aswell although he was at very good clubs like Porto and Deportivo (Mendes effect)

[Keyblade]

13 minutes ago, barry'sboots said:

Roy Hodgson.

A number of other top PL managers had relatively very limited playing careers - Rafa Benitez, Jurgen Klopp, Arsene Wenger, Chris Wilder, Eddie Howe, Brendan Rodgers, Daniel Farke, Unai Emery whilst Sean Dyche, Graham Potter and Dean Smith were hardly superstars.  Bielsa also didn't have much of a playing career.

All players though, which is my point. Whether or not they were superstars is immaterial.

[barry'sboots]

3 minutes ago, Keyblade said:

All players though, which is my point. Whether or not they were superstars is immaterial.

Yes, but just because you have played it doesn't mean you will make a good manager.  As I said the skill set for a manager is very different to that of a player.

[Zatman]

5 hours ago, Keyblade said:

Well yes. My point was Jose Mourinho types are very rare. Can you name any other manager in a similar mould?

Arrigo Sacchi, he had a famous quote that i didnt know you had to be a jockey to become a horse

Maurizio Sarri, Sven, Carlos Alberto Parreira, Ralf Rangnick, Julian Nagelsmann and Villas Boas also never played professionally

[Keyblade]

10 hours ago, barry'sboots said:

Yes, but just because you have played it doesn't mean you will make a good manager.  As I said the skill set for a manager is very different to that of a player.

We're not talking about "good" managers though (which is subjective anyway), but being employed as a manager in the first place. You can't eat if you don't have a seat at the table.

For the bolded, that applies across the board though. For whatever reason, the vast majority of managers are former players, so there's obviously some correlation between playing the game and managing it. Whether or not a player will make a good manager is another matter entirely.

[Keyblade]

9 hours ago, Zatman said:

Arrigo Sacchi, he had a famous quote that i didnt know you had to be a jockey to become a horse

Maurizio Sarri, Sven, Carlos Alberto Parreira, Ralf Rangnick, Julian Nagelsmann and Villas Boas also never played professionally

Listing outliers kind of proves the point didn't it? I imagine they make up less than 10% of all managers.

I guess there's another debate to be had about how difficult it is for non-players to get into the game at a high level. Meanwhile it seems the criteria for some is simply be a decent player for some London clubs and do your badges (ex: Scott Parker).

Could be the root of both of these issues, at least in England is some weird "good old boys" nepotism.

[Stevo985]

22 hours ago, barry'sboots said:

I'll preface this by saying I am a middle aged white guy.  I have a number of business ventures, the main two of which are with one white partner and three Muslim partners, and in my previous business venture I had a Muslim partner for over 10 years and we are still good friends.  Suffice to say, I do not believe that I am racist.

The above comments and similar I have heard numerous times from quite a few black players and Kick it Out do annoy me somewhat, but maybe I am missing something so I'd be happy to be enlightened.

The percentage of black people in the UK is circa 3%, so a ratio of 5% is comfortably ahead of that?

The percentage of black players in the PL is circa 33%.  Are we discriminating against white players?  I don't think so.

In the 2017 African Nations only three of the teams had black managers.  Are their FA's racist?

Fulham, Leicester, Man City, Villa, Sheff U are all owned by BAME owners.  Are they all racist as none of them have a BAME manager?

There are only 8 English managers in the PL.  Should there be more English managers?

It is so easy to trot out the line that the FA and football is institutionally racist (and I do accept Greg Clarke didn't deliver the best dialogue), and it might be, but I do not believe that the fact that black managers only represent 5% of the manager population supports this?? 

You said it yourself. 33% of players are black but only 5% (I don't know if that's an actual figure, that post was 18 months ago and I think it was just a guess) of managers are black. That would suggest there is an issue with a lack of opportunities for black managers. The population of black people in the UK doesn't really have any relevance in the context.

Like I said in the post you quoted, I don't believe it's explicit racism. I don't think the owners you've mentioned say "Don't hire Paul Ince because he's black". But I think it's clear that black coaches and managers don't get as many opportunities as white coaches and managers.

Stating that Premier League managers and managers at the very top level of African football are white doesn't really do anything to help your argument that it isn't a race thing.

 

Let me ask a genuine question in reply. If you're right and there is no race issue for managers and coaches, then why aren't there more black managers and coaches given they make up a third of the playing population?