Dean Smith

[TRO]

37 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

We're not elite athletes, but my team of fairly high performing software devs have no meetings before 10 these days, because we're a team of late risers and came to an agreement we'd be happier starting later so we pushed our team meetings back to accomodate. Some teams start at 8, we have some people that head for their desk no earlier than 9:59. If our boss put his foot down about working hours when we get shit done, work the same amount of time, and work hard when we're there, I imagine most of us would quit. 

If the team had said they were happier getting training done with earlier so we'd moved training forward to start at 8, I imagine people would have fewer problems, but there's the assumption that wanting to start later is them being lazy.

I think the comparison, is far fetched.....These guys are on film star wages, so I guess....It might have them think, they can't push their luck.

you maybe in a labour market, where that is not quite so easy, its horses for courses.

I am not at odds with flexible working, I am at odds with Elite footballers under performing and trying to make suggestions why.

I have suspicions, based on past experience, but thats all....I have no idea of what goes on at BMH

but I have been a manager, like you......and its not unusual to hear a manager say, "the more I do for my lot, the worse it is"......yep, its a quick lesson in controlling a group, learn to say No, as quick as you want to say yes.....sure you have to mix it, but you get back control, you are bound to lose one or two, but I guarantee, you keep the majority of the group and more importantly, the mentality of the working environment gets established.

Edited November 6, 2021 by TRO

[TRO]

10 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

Better get angry about them just in case  

I am not angry, just disappointed, in what is unfolding in front of me.

[PaulC]

7 minutes ago, blandy said:

Not really, I don't think

The stuff done to maintain or instil discipline back in the 70s and 80s is completely unacceptable across almost all walks of life these days, and even in those where it is still more like the 70s and 80s, there's been changes.

So yes, the need for discipline is timeless, but the methodology is different.

The players of today have been brought up in a world where bawling out, hairdryer treatment, beastings and the like are not only alien, but where they are counter-productive and unacceptable, in the main. There's more carrot than stick these days. More psychological science, more empathy and so on.

"Your wife's gone in to labour? tough sh*t, get out on the training ground" carries no weight today. Ditto all kinds of other "team first" stuff, too numerous to go into, but I'm sure you can think of many examples.

I don't know I think public floggings would be the best method of installing discipline . 

[The Fun Factory]

43 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

I'm struggling to get too worked up about us being a flexible employer and letting people have a later working day.

Won't somebody please think of the children

[Davkaus]

5 minutes ago, TRO said:

I am not angry, just disappointed, in what is unfolding in front of me.

It was a very sarcastic reply, but the bolded bit just tickled me. I think we're on absolutely the same page when it comes to how unacceptable the recent performances are and just disagree on the relevance of the start time of training.

[TRO]

8 minutes ago, blandy said:

Not really, I don't think

The stuff done to maintain or instil discipline back in the 70s and 80s is completely unacceptable across almost all walks of life these days, and even in those where it is still more like the 70s and 80s, there's been changes.

So yes, the need for discipline is timeless, but the methodology is different.

The players of today have been brought up in a world where bawling out, hairdryer treatment, beastings and the like are not only alien, but where they are counter-productive and unacceptable, in the main. There's more carrot than stick these days. More psychological science, more empathy and so on.

"Your wife's gone in to labour? tough sh*t, get out on the training ground" carries no weight today. Ditto all kinds of other "team first" stuff, too numerous to go into, but I'm sure you can think of many examples.

Pete that is not what I am suggesting at all.....as you rightly refer to, the methodology of discipline has changed.

Discipline in one form or another, must prevail in any organisation of free thinking people, where a common objective is sought...its part of the structure.

Bullying, gas lighting and the like is not what, I am referring to, which is unacceptable.....The best form of discipline is knowing prudently when to say "yes" and when to say "No", in pursuit of the overall objectives.

[foreveryoung]

1 hour ago, Kuwabatake Sanjuro said:

Wouldn't happen in an elite culture you get at the top teams.

This is a joke yeah?

I can't see Conte or Pep allowing this, I thought the discipline was missing from this team, now I know why..

They are gonna have one hell of a shock when a new manager comes in.

[TRO]

3 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

It was a very sarcastic reply, but the bolded bit just tickled me. I think we're on absolutely the same page when it comes to how unacceptable the recent performances are and just disagree on the relevance of the start time of training.

Ok, I see the funny side now.

It was't written not to be carte blanche to our problems, just highlighting, how things could slip.

I happen to think Dean, is a thoroughly nice fella, that's what I get from his persona,but I am unsure if he is a Driver...and demands things.

I am not expecting bawling and shouting.....but setting standards can illustrate a demanding nature....that has to happen daily.

 

[thabucks]

Plenty of stuff that can be used to criticise  Smith but even for me digging up an quote from an article with nothing else to compare it to for balance is a bit of a stretch. 

[TRO]

12 minutes ago, foreveryoung said:

This is a joke yeah?

I can't see Conte or Pep allowing this, I thought the discipline was missing from this team, now I know why..

They are gonna have one hell of a shock when a new manager comes in.

I wouldn't be surprised, if Dean stays in the job....they might think we got promotion once, do it again ,son.

what about the stuff we don't know about?

When you see a 6'2 player in ElGhazi come second in an aerial duel with Ward Prowse and you see  play in the box with not one player in sight at the far post and a bunch of keystone cops, come running past after the ball.....you know we have problems.

Edited November 6, 2021 by TRO

[chrisvilla4]

1 hour ago, Davkaus said:

I'm struggling to get too worked up about us being a flexible employer and letting people have a later working day.

I'm not sure it's about that, can't think of too many employers who would agree to people starting later to fit in gaming. And isn't 10am a late enough start anyway? 

I'm sure flexibility around employment is more for childcare/ other commitments/ responsibilities. 

If you're winning and putting in a shift then it becomes less of an issue. 

[TRO]

1 hour ago, OutByEaster? said:

It's worth keeping in mind that these are players that have their sleep recorded by the club through monitoring devices. The days of this sort of thing being done on feel and instinct aren't with us any more. It'll be working if it shows well in tests on whatever metrics they use; blood oxygen levels or whatever.

 

 

but its not the point....The point was made to question the strength of the management decisions....the act itself may be/seem innocuous.

Albeit some players with huge drive and self engagement to improving, choose 2.00pm to 4.00pm for personal time....so that could preclude them from that.

It just don't sit right with me.....they should go to bed earlier, you're playing for Aston Villa,, is that not enough to say NO.

[villa4europe]

4 minutes ago, chrisvilla4 said:

I'm not sure it's about that, can't think of too many employers who would agree to people starting later to fit in gaming. And isn't 10am a late enough start anyway? 

I'm sure flexibility around employment is more for childcare/ other commitments/ responsibilities. 

If you're winning and putting in a shift then it becomes less of an issue. 

The gaming is just an example of what they're doing until that time not the reason we do it, it sounds like something we've done to try and make an unhappy squad happy but there's nothing to suggest it's working 

The last statement is completely true, if we were winning no one would care 

The interesting thing would be if training doesn't start until 12 how many of them are at BMH at 10am or 11am doing some extra gym work of with some of the coaches? Doubt we'll find out but I'd want it to be more than a few

[MessiWillSignForVilla]

1 hour ago, OutByEaster? said:

It's worth keeping in mind that these are players that have their sleep recorded by the club through monitoring devices. The days of this sort of thing being done on feel and instinct aren't with us any more. It'll be working if it shows well in tests on whatever metrics they use; blood oxygen levels or whatever.

 

 

It's also scientifically proven that exercising in the early afternoon is the best for peak performance.

[Vive_La_Villa]

We’re not going to get relegated. Smith or no Smith.

[blandy]

32 minutes ago, TRO said:

Pete that is not what I am suggesting at all.....as you rightly refer to, the methodology of discipline has changed.

Oh, I know you weren't suggesting those things, I used them to try to illustrate my point that the nature of instilling "discipline" has changed - such that some techniques used by the likes of Ron Saunders are obsolete now.

The training start time might be an example of where Dean could change it back, as a means of making a change to players routines because of poor performances - a symbol of a new approach, but that doesn't mean setting it later was a mistake. It's just a tool.

[TRO]

3 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

We’re not going to get relegated. Smith or no Smith.

can you put that in writing

[TRO]

5 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

We’re not going to get relegated. Smith or no Smith.

when do you think we can expect, the next win?

[foreveryoung]

I can't believe this could be true surely.

Buendia, cannot play a full game

Traore injured not fit

Sanson Covid

Ings Covid

Mings benched, Why?

Watkins not 100%

McGinn, better for Scotland

Luiz Injured not fit

Shall I go on. Where's the coaching, where's the discipline. 

You only get intensity from your players with a disciplined team who are listening to instructions. They shouldn't need to be told half way through a game with a piece on paper.

It's obviously not right behind the scenes and the quicker we get a new manager in the better, I don't wanna start hating on Smith cause he and his coaching staff are not fit for purpose. Allowing players to train later cause they are up late playing games is shocking to say the least. They are supposed to be fully focused, they shouldn't want to come in any later if they are enjoying their football. The best are in early and leave last.

[nick76]

A pointless discussion to get enraged about.  Footballers main work times ie games include kick offs of 7.45 or 8.00pm in the week.  The earliest they play a game is 12.30pm and a lot of games play mid afternoon to early evening.  So if their training is a little later, say mid day, and in fact more in line with the games it’s better for the body clock.

If the training isn’t good enough then get enraged but moving times is a little pointless to be enraged about.