Dean Smith

[nick76]

15 minutes ago, Big Salad said:

It will take a monumental collapse from Dean for him to get sacked anytime soon imo.

Completely agree, 3 loses after 2 wins isn’t going to get him the sack.

[Peter Griffin]

2 minutes ago, nick76 said:

Completely agree, 3 loses after 2 wins isn’t going to get him the sack.

I don't think anyone is suggesting he gets the sack after 3 losses

[TRO]

20 hours ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

I actually get more pissed off at Jack for that. 

Dean might have discussed that with him privately, we dont know.

However my point with Jack is, why ain't he throwing those types of strops at City or for England?

Lack of respect for us IMO. Or " bigger than " attitude etc.

could be the essence of the original point ....because he knows the consequences.

[tom_avfc]

1 minute ago, VillaFaninLondon said:

Of course we have to make the change. I don’t know why they’d wait that long if we were doing that badly.

 

This squad is good enough for an 8th-10th placed finish in all honesty. Smith may get away with finishing a couple of places below that, but anything below that and surely he’s a goner.

I keep reading this about the squad being good for an 8th - 10th placed finish and I'm not really sure where it comes from. There's a genuine 5 teams that we were never going to finish above this season - Man United, Liverpool, Chelsea, Man City and Leicester. You then get to West Ham and Spurs who are another 2 that I would say there was next to no chance of us finishing above. Arsenal and Everton both finished above us last season also and neither lost their one outstanding player like Villa did. That's 9 teams now that I'd expect to finish above us going into the season. Wolves are an interesting one in that they fell apart last season after losing Raul Jimenez last season and if he comes back into form then they're a completely different proposition to last season. 

I just don't get how people are saying this squad is an 8th - 10th placed squad in this league. To me it's a squad that could finish anywhere between 9th and 13th and I'd consider that to be a decent season given that we made more money in player sales than in purchases in the summer and lost our best player in the process ( a player that is near on impossible to replace).

I do think that Smith is likely to be a bit of a victim of his own success last season. Finishing 11th was well above what I'd have anticipated last season and has people dreaming of European football when in reality the squad is still a bit threadbare once we pick up an injury or two. I think we're on the right track and the demand for instant success is something that I'd have thought would have been put into perspective by the few years we spent outside the Premier League. 

[VillaFaninLondon]

Depends if 3 straight losses turns to 4,5,6. If that happens I’m not sure his position will be tenable no matter how the truth is twisted.
 

if he stops being weak and finally drops Ings or Watkins, drops Tuanzebe, and reverts to 4-3-3 he might still save himself if we can put together a decent run of results, but I’d be surprised if the owners and Purslow aren’t thinking about a potential successor in the coming weeks if this horrible form continues.

[AvonVillain]

1 minute ago, tom_avfc said:

To me it's a squad that could finish anywhere between 9th and 13th and I'd consider that to be a decent season...

You're probably right in this assessment, but I still wouldn't consider it a 'decent' season, but a disappointing one, unless we won a cup which isn't very likely.

[nick76]

Just now, AvonVillain said:

You're probably right in this assessment, but I still wouldn't consider it a 'decent' season, but a disappointing one, unless we won a cup which isn't very likely.

Maybe but given a lot on this website at the beginning of the season with this squad thought we’d end up about that range in the league I find it hard to see it anything other than decent. 7th or 8th would be brilliant and 6th above would be dream land. We were always going to have a consolidation season at some point and maybe after three seasons of progression this maybe it plus the next step is huge.

[TRO]

2 hours ago, Indigo said:

Being inconsistent generally won't see you relegated considering there are going to be a number of teams who are consistent...ly bad.

The trouble with stats is they can be a bit contradictory, depending on how they are compiled.

I saw a bunch of stats that had us midtable for pressing, he had us 5th.

My other observation is....Its what Jack Grealish brought to the team, in terms of attributes we are missing, not just Jack Grealish, per se.....We have to find players, who are comfortable on the ball and can stay on it.

I would also like to add.....At the start of the season the popular conception, from many quarters was European football, with games, the expectation has slipped to top half, to midtable and judging by some comments, ready for the next appraisal after 3 defeats and poor performances...is it going to be 13/14/15th.

so what is my point?

My point is this right now, there is not a disaster and IMO no grounds for doing anything, but get behind the team and Manager, but to do that without due care and attention to our issues, that are leading to these poor performances and defeats, is tantamount to burying our heads in the sand....things are not right, and the discerning amongst us know it.

We are 9 games in, with 29 to play.....there is bags of time to turn this around, but turn it around, we must do....words are empty, we need action and a bunch of players and coaches to come out fighting...." Nero fiddles while Rome burns " may not be appropriate at present, butw we must ensure it doesn't become just that.

In this industry there is no static....its dynamic. You are either on the way up or on the way down, right now we know where we are, we must first arrest it and then redirect it.....thats Deans Challenge.

 

Edited October 26, 2021 by TRO

[VillaFaninLondon]

1 minute ago, tom_avfc said:

I keep reading this about the squad being good for an 8th - 10th placed finish and I'm not really sure where it comes from. There's a genuine 5 teams that we were never going to finish above this season - Man United, Liverpool, Chelsea, Man City and Leicester. You then get to West Ham and Spurs who are another 2 that I would say there was next to no chance of us finishing above. Arsenal and Everton both finished above us last season also and neither lost their one outstanding player like Villa did. That's 9 teams now that I'd expect to finish above us going into the season. Wolves are an interesting one in that they fell apart last season after losing Raul Jimenez last season and if he comes back into form then they're a completely different proposition to last season. 

I just don't get how people are saying this squad is an 8th - 10th placed squad in this league. To me it's a squad that could finish anywhere between 9th and 13th and I'd consider that to be a decent season given that we made more money in player sales than in purchases in the summer and lost our best player in the process ( a player that is near on impossible to replace).

I do think that Smith is likely to be a bit of a victim of his own success last season. Finishing 11th was well above what I'd have anticipated last season and has people dreaming of European football when in reality the squad is still a bit threadbare once we pick up an injury or two. I think we're on the right track and the demand for instant success is something that I'd have thought would have been put into perspective by the few years we spent outside the Premier League. 

8th-10th I think is fair. Many neutrals tipped us to be in that ball park in their preseason predictions. Grealish was a big loss but we need to get over it, he’s gone. We’ve still got a strong squad and while I think we should have spent more this summer boosting the team with his money, we still brought in 3 very good players, 2 of whom were coming off the back of their best ever seasons.
 

If we’re going on best teams/squads, top 4 are clearly above the rest, then Leicester and Spurs. I’d say ours is similar to Arsenal, Everton, West Ham, Wolves and we could finish above any of them if we had a good season. Right now their managers are doing a far better job than smith given they are on between 13 and 17 points and we’re on 10. 
 

 

[DCJonah]

13 minutes ago, tom_avfc said:

I keep reading this about the squad being good for an 8th - 10th placed finish and I'm not really sure where it comes from. There's a genuine 5 teams that we were never going to finish above this season - Man United, Liverpool, Chelsea, Man City and Leicester. You then get to West Ham and Spurs who are another 2 that I would say there was next to no chance of us finishing above. Arsenal and Everton both finished above us last season also and neither lost their one outstanding player like Villa did. That's 9 teams now that I'd expect to finish above us going into the season. Wolves are an interesting one in that they fell apart last season after losing Raul Jimenez last season and if he comes back into form then they're a completely different proposition to last season. 

I just don't get how people are saying this squad is an 8th - 10th placed squad in this league. To me it's a squad that could finish anywhere between 9th and 13th and I'd consider that to be a decent season given that we made more money in player sales than in purchases in the summer and lost our best player in the process ( a player that is near on impossible to replace).

I do think that Smith is likely to be a bit of a victim of his own success last season. Finishing 11th was well above what I'd have anticipated last season and has people dreaming of European football when in reality the squad is still a bit threadbare once we pick up an injury or two. I think we're on the right track and the demand for instant success is something that I'd have thought would have been put into perspective by the few years we spent outside the Premier League. 

It's good enough to challenge for a top half finish, but we've done nothing to say it should be the expectation. 

We finished below 10 teams last season. What did we do in the summer to ensure that we should expect to finish above 2 or 3 of them this year? 

Leeds have collapsed but Wolves have stepped up to challenge for the position. 

I remember some talk about how it would take 3 years in the prem for us to get the squad where we wanted to really challenge for FFP purposes. Yet no patience and we should already be above teams that had a huge advantage on us whilst we were in the championship for 3 years. 

I think people forget we've been a premier league team for 2 seasons. How many other promoted teams have a consistent top half squad within 2 seasons? And before people mention money, it didn't help Fulham stay up. It didn't help sheff u progress, wolves slipped back down to the bottom half last season. Leeds could only maintain it for an initial season.

[DCJonah]

Just now, VillaFaninLondon said:

8th-10th I think is fair. Many neutrals tipped us to be in that ball park in their preseason predictions. Grealish was a big loss but we need to get over it, he’s gone. We’ve still got a strong squad and while I think we should have spent more this summer boosting the team with his money, we still brought in 3 very good players, 2 of whom were coming off the back of their best ever seasons.
 

If we’re going on best teams/squads, top 4 are clearly above the rest, then Leicester and Spurs. I’d say ours is similar to Arsenal, Everton, West Ham, Wolves and we could finish above any of them if we had a good season. Right now their managers are doing a far better job than smith given they are on between 13 and 17 points and we’re on 10. 
 

 

Based on what? Transfer fees? Wage bills? I bet our squad is below those you've mentioned in both those categories. 

[nick76]

8 minutes ago, TRO said:

I would also like to add.....At the start of the season the popular conception, from many quarters was European football

I don’t remember that, the popular conception I thought was we’d end up 8-12th.  Aim for Europe yes but likely end mid table.

I don’t think that has changed I just think the realisation has hit some of where we are and that Europe was only an aim and that we are a mid table team.

Edited October 26, 2021 by nick76

[DCJonah]

1 minute ago, nick76 said:

I don’t remember that, the popular conception I thought was we’d end up 8-12th.  Aim for Europe yes but likely end mid table.

Yeah what TRO said is not true at all. 

There were lots of people who thought it might be possible to challenge but it wasn't an expectation. 

Even the most critical Smith posters admitted in August that mid table was decent. 

[VillaFaninLondon]

16 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

Based on what? Transfer fees? Wage bills? I bet our squad is below those you've mentioned in both those categories. 

Pretty sure our wage bill is above wolves and not far off Everton and West Ham. Think it’s about 10th in the league which is about right with where I said this squad should be. 

[foreveryoung]

22 minutes ago, VillaFaninLondon said:

8th-10th I think is fair. Many neutrals tipped us to be in that ball park in their preseason predictions. Grealish was a big loss but we need to get over it, he’s gone. We’ve still got a strong squad and while I think we should have spent more this summer boosting the team with his money, we still brought in 3 very good players, 2 of whom were coming off the back of their best ever seasons.
 

If we’re going on best teams/squads, top 4 are clearly above the rest, then Leicester and Spurs. I’d say ours is similar to Arsenal, Everton, West Ham, Wolves and we could finish above any of them if we had a good season. Right now their managers are doing a far better job than smith given they are on between 13 and 17 points and we’re on 10. 
 

 

I agree with this, we should really be close to catching a crap Everton team, Spurs and Arsenal at the moment. Does no one think, if we hadn't hit this horrible form we wouldn't be on par, if not above them. I'm not gonna mention Wolves, cause if anyone thinks they are better, or have a better squad, they must have very low expectations of us, or are definitely covering for Smith.

[Indigo]

28 minutes ago, TRO said:

The trouble with stats is they can be a bit contradictory, depending on how they are compiled.

I saw a bunch of stats that had us midtable for pressing, he had us 5th.

My other observation is....Its what Jack Grealish brought to the team, in terms of attributes we are missing, not just Jack Grealish, per se.....We have to find players, who are comfortable on the ball and can stay on it.

 

"Pressing" can be a vague term and dependent on a number of factors from amount of possession on so forth, and in most cases just totals the amount of pressures a team is making without further context. That 5th place is specifically for PPDA which is a bit more specific and indicative of the effectiveness of a team's pressing.

I think as Smith identified in the off season - which I agree with - our main issue was how cheaply we would cede possession, and generally how poor we were at retaining it in attacking areas. Much of the recruitment - from players to Danks, and even attempted transfers such as ESR - was made in an attempt to rectify this, and it's concerning we're yet to see the fruits of this at all really, even in some of the good results, however I accept that there have certainly been some mitigating factors and that patience will be required.

[TRO]

31 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

It's good enough to challenge for a top half finish, but we've done nothing to say it should be the expectation. 

We finished below 10 teams last season. What did we do in the summer to ensure that we should expect to finish above 2 or 3 of them this year? 

Leeds have collapsed but Wolves have stepped up to challenge for the position. 

I remember some talk about how it would take 3 years in the prem for us to get the squad where we wanted to really challenge for FFP purposes. Yet no patience and we should already be above teams that had a huge advantage on us whilst we were in the championship for 3 years. 

I think people forget we've been a premier league team for 2 seasons. How many other promoted teams have a consistent top half squad within 2 seasons? And before people mention money, it didn't help Fulham stay up. It didn't help sheff u progress, wolves slipped back down to the bottom half last season. Leeds could only maintain it for an initial season.

I think you make some sounds points, but in my opinion fail to see the other side of the debate.

I was listening to that JLA presentation on us and yet again, he made some points....but one was, sadly that we bumped in to Spurs after a bad defeat to Arsenal, rendering us vulnerable to the back lash, which is fair comment, except when we go to Arsenal on the back of a bad defeat to Wolves, the same line, is ignored and our expected back lash waivered....funny that.

We all know these things take time, but the burning question is how much time?.....when do you honestly think that line will be exhausted or reasonably questioned?......during the last 80 games( picked at random) i would have thought our wins to losses ratio, would have increased and it has, but so marginally, its hardly worth mentioning.....you see, I am interested to know how long the time/patience ponts is valid for...Its not a trick question, I genuinely don't know how long its a bonafide claim for.

I actually admire you for your positive approach, but I think its marred by your reluctance to see an alternative view, like the one Trent, so eloquently mustered.

Look, it goes without saying, we are all hoping you are right, by the way....but I fear, if you are not, we don't just drift in to another false sense of security......I am old enough to remember, and I have seen it all before....how many was behind Lambert when others said time up and that didn't end well, singing for him at Norwich,initially,  I recall......different times, yes....we all hope.

Just hoping Dean sorts it and my concerns are all rendered as unfounded.

 

[TRO]

41 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

Yeah what TRO said is not true at all. 

There were lots of people who thought it might be possible to challenge but it wasn't an expectation. 

Even the most critical Smith posters admitted in August that mid table was decent. 

I did say some.....and I think the club intimated such, initially.

[TRO]

45 minutes ago, nick76 said:

I don’t remember that, the popular conception I thought was we’d end up 8-12th.  Aim for Europe yes but likely end mid table.

I don’t think that has changed I just think the realisation has hit some of where we are and that Europe was only an aim and that we are a mid table team.

I said many quarters....like you I thought it was ambitious, but I seem to recall muttering from the club itself....even the media picked up on it, like I say as soon as the season started it evaporated.

[WallisFrizz]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

could be the essence of the original point ....because he knows the consequences.

Am I misremembering? He didn’t throw a strop did he? It was Barkley who was kicking water bottles etc, Jack came off no problem but just looked gutted about it when the tv camera focused on him. I think he has to train himself to not look gutted about being subbed ever since then, as he became a meme. I don’t think we should read too much into it.