Dean Smith

[Vive_La_Villa]

5 minutes ago, briny_ear said:

Not quite sure how you can inadvertently read something, but where and when did you accidentally read this? If you can give the context it may be possible to give a reply.

You can still read blocked posters when they are quoted but can’t actually quote their post. I was intrigued by the comment so I put it out there. 

Edited April 5, 2021 by Vive_La_Villa

[TRO]

57 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

I inadvertently read that Smith hasn’t shown the tactical nous to take us to the ‘next level’.

What does this even mean?

Quite.

I think tactics are over rated, that is not me saying, they don't matter or dismissing them out of hand.....what happened yesterday was 3  fired up players, intent on making a impact...and boy they did.

and Bravo to them and Dean for Changing it.

Edited April 5, 2021 by TRO

[DaveAV1]

15 minutes ago, TRO said:

 

I think tactics are over rated

Oh mate please don’t go back into your inner Steve Bruce. I have a leafy brassica nearby.....

[barry'sboots]

12 hours ago, villalad21 said:

I don't think you will find anyone on here not appreciative of the progress we've made.

But it's about going to that next level and some of us don't feel Smith is the right man to achieve that. Not seen him have the tactical nouse required to get there.

He will get next season for sure but it will be interesting to see if he can raise above that famous "ceiling" which for instance Wolves have definitely hit under Nuno.

Agreed. Its a good time to be a Villa fan.  Fantastic (and very wealthy) owners supporting the club and looking to compete at the right end of the table.

Nuno has run out of backing - they can't get any money out of China - so has to self generate to compete.  We can tell them to do one when they come knocking for Jack or, say, Konsa.

I like Smith.  He seems like a really decent bloke, speaks openly (not the usual BS) and the players appear to like, particularly Jack which is obviously key!  Like you, I worry that he tactically inflexible.  I think, from what I have seen, he was good at Brentford at building a squad that could play how he wants to play i.e. 4-3-3, and he had like for like changes.  I am not so sure he had a squad that would enable him to tweak the team/formation/tactics.  That's my concern.  We have a huge window coming up and I hope that we are going to buy at least 5 players - a starting RW; a "9" to compete; a "10" to replace Barkley; a proper DCM; and a back up left back.  We need those players to allow us to play in different ways - to suit the challenge of the opposition - and I am not convinced Smith does this, but I hope he proves me wrong as, like you, I am sure he will get the chance.  

[lexicon]

18 hours ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

I inadvertently read that Smith hasn’t shown the tactical nous to take us to the ‘next level’.

What does this even mean?

It means that somebody scored 30 goals in a season with Trezeguet on FIFA and can't fathom why Smith hasn't managed to get that out of him. 

[Philosopher]

18 hours ago, TRO said:

Quite.

I think tactics are over rated, that is not me saying, they don't matter or dismissing them out of hand.....what happened yesterday was 3  fired up players, intent on making a impact...and boy they did.

and Bravo to them and Dean for Changing it.

I slightly disagree. I think our tactics work better with a 442 and a target man then a 433. The target man gives time to get bodies forward. And more options before that as there are 4 instead of 3 high up the pitch. We basically play an aggressive direct counter attacking style (aggressive in our desire to hit teams on the break). The more players already up the field the better and if one or more are good at holding it up and winning aerial balls then even better. 

As a team our short passing is basic! We can't do anything without Jack directing. Old school 442 (MON) is how we should go without Jack, or go Davis CF and get Trez and Ollie very narrow buzzing around Davis (Mourinho).

[nick76]

8 minutes ago, Philosopher said:

I slightly disagree. I think our tactics work better with a 442 and a target man then a 433. The target man gives time to get bodies forward. And more options before that as there are 4 instead of 3 high up the pitch. We basically play an aggressive direct counter attacking style (aggressive in our desire to hit teams on the break). The more players already up the field the better and if one or more are good at holding it up and winning aerial balls then even better. 

As a team our short passing is basic! We can't do anything without Jack directing. Old school 442 (MON) is how we should go without Jack, or go Davis CF and get Trez and Ollie very narrow buzzing around Davis (Mourinho).

I’m not agreeing or disagreeing with you but I’m not sure we have the right players for the traditional 442 especially out wide.

[MaVilla]

1 hour ago, lexicon said:

It means that somebody scored 30 goals in a season with Trezeguet on FIFA and can't fathom why Smith hasn't managed to get that out of him. 

yeah but......why didnt he?????

Edited April 6, 2021 by MaVilla

[villalad21]

52 minutes ago, nick76 said:

I’m not agreeing or disagreeing with you but I’m not sure we have the right players for the traditional 442 especially out wide.

We don't really have wingers, we have inside forwards.

4-4-2 ain't happening.

I'm not really on the train of thought that the formation have been the issue the past months. Players simply have not looked up for it for whatever reason.

When Davis and Trez came on it looked like the players wanted it and we saw more aggression from them. Davis brings that physicality we don't really have. I don't think we could have done what we did without him as much as you don't rate the guy.

[Philosopher]

2 hours ago, nick76 said:

I’m not agreeing or disagreeing with you but I’m not sure we have the right players for the traditional 442 especially out wide.

Depends how you look at it. El-Ghazi basically hugs the touchline a looks for the first opportunity to cross or shoot so he certainly can. Trezguet is a defensive winger. We have 3 box to box mids that can play 6. So I reckon we can play 4-4-2. I do prefer to play  4-3-3 with Davis centre forward and Trez and Watkins close to him, as their workrate and non stop running will make up for only having 3 up top. 

I just think we (the fans) are under the illusion we are some attractive attacking  team, when really without Jack we simply don't have the quality to be that. We are a long ball team, that has a special player that is the fulcrum of the team in the attacking third. We can't replace his creativity so we have to pack midfield with hardworkers, and the attack with tireless runners and a big man.

Smith I feel has been as pragmatic as he can as our tactics are far more defensive than he'd like, but he's done it out of necessity rather than choice. Without Jack he needs to compromise a little more as grinding out results is the only avenue open to us. Hopefully he gives the Davis, Watkins, Trez front 3 a try for 2 or 3 matches. With City and Liverpool coming up it's certainly the only sniff of a chance we have to get any points.

Edited April 6, 2021 by Philosopher

[nick76]

2 minutes ago, Philosopher said:

Depends how you look at it. El-Ghazi basically hugs the touchline a looks for the first opportunity to cross or shoot so he certainly can. Trezguet is a defensive winger. We have 3 box to box mids that can play 6. So I reckon we can play 4-4-2. I do prefer to play  4-3-3 with Davis centre forward and Trez and Watkins close to him, as their workrate and non stop running will make up for only having 3 up top. 

I’m not sure I agree with your view of Trez and El Ghazi in a 442.  I agree with Davis and Watkins in a top two just don’t think El Ghazi and Trez as traditional wingers.

[Philosopher]

5 minutes ago, villalad21 said:

We don't really have wingers, we have inside forwards.

4-4-2 ain't happening.

I'm not really on the train of thought that the formation have been the issue the past months. Players simply have not looked up for it for whatever reason.

When Davis and Trez came on it looked like the players wanted it and we saw more aggression from them. Davis brings that physicality we don't really have. I don't think we could have done what we did without him as much as you don't rate the guy.

Trez is always up for it. Davis may not score but if you guys close to him making runs in behind and into the channels that can feed off him he can be effective for us. Trez and Watkins are the only guys that can make those runs and help defensively.

It's not formations, it's tactics. Formations are just a part of it. It's players, their positions, formation, attacking intent, passing style, and pressing style. Our current formation and personnel over the last few games haven't complimented the passing style. We play direct, lots of long balls so to play with a 5'10 in behind striker, no target man and widemen that are poor at holding the ball up, we simply aren't able to get hold of the ball enough in our opponents third to build any pressure.

Obviously the performances are going to be poor if the tactics don't play the the strengths of the 11 on the pitch. We can't build any sustained pressure, we aren't creating chances and the midfield spend the majority of the game chasing the ball. 

McGinn is not a number 10. Watkins is not a target man, our other wingers aren't capable of doing what Jack does. We can't play the same without Jack as we do with him in the team.

 

[Philosopher]

12 minutes ago, nick76 said:

I’m not sure I agree with your view of Trez and El Ghazi in a 442.  I agree with Davis and Watkins in a top two just don’t think El Ghazi and Trez as traditional wingers.

They aren't but look at MON's villa. Young a right footer on the left cutting inside a crossing. Milner a hard working willing runner on the right. 442 is usually used in a lopsided manner with the one sided being solid and offer more in the middle and the other side of the pitch where the majority of the attacking is done. Very rarely did you ever see a flying winger on each wing. Fergie's Man U had Beckham and Neville crossing from deep on the right and Giggs and Evra on the left running the ball.

[AndyM3000]

Lack of numbers going forward is my big issue. We have become more solid defensively but lack any real threat without Jack in the team.

When we have Watkins, Jack, Barkley, Traore up front in a 4-2-3-1 we are fine but then we changed to a 4-3-3 with Trez/Ghazi, Watkins, Traore and 3 CMs who don't seem to really want to break into the final 3rd much. This is similar to the Liverpool system but Pool push the wingers inside and the full backs up, we don't do that and all this creates is boring football where it goes wide and backwards on repeat.

Last season we were trying to win games too often and now I feel without Jack we are just trying not to lose them. Smith needs to find a middle ground and way of playing because it's boring to watch, we were absolutely awful for 80 minutes on Sunday and it's been much of the same for the last 6+ weeks. The squad still lacks quality but I can't figure out what our attacking game plan is, I don't think we have one.

[VillanousOne]

With or even without Jack, we push most of our attacking threat down the left and teams reduce that space and mark in numbers and we lose our attacking shape.

For some reason both Cash and Traore seem to get very little width either, I lost count how many times the ball would go to Cash or Traore then get passed back in field or backwards vs Fulham (granted Traore found some space late on when the subs were made).

I think the fact we get shut down so easily on the wings wouldn't be so bad if we had any attacking threat down the middle (aside from Grealish).
 

[DaveAV1]

21 hours ago, TRO said:

Quite.

I think tactics are over rated, that is not me saying, they don't matter or dismissing them out of hand.....what happened yesterday was 3  fired up players, intent on making a impact...and boy they did.

and Bravo to them and Dean for Changing it.

In all seriousness, tactics are important in the modern game but are useless in isolation. The team needs the players able to understand, appreciate and carry out the tactics. They also need to have players with the right attitude. If all our players were similar in character to the likes of Trez, SJM and Ollie, regardless of ability and form we and any team for that matter, would be improved. 

The attitude in general through the entire club, not just players, is vastly improved from where we were before the arrival of NSWE. I’d go as far as saying the best I’ve experienced in my life as a Villa fan. Even during the wonderful Saunders era up to winning the European cup, there was always boardroom battles raging. We finally appear to have the club all pulling in the same direction.

I don’t know what Dean Smith’s ceiling is. I think he’s learning on the job still but there’s no doubting that he is making season on season progress. He fits the club in many ways and I think that the powers that be are enjoying watching his progress and want to see where that can take us. I also believe that they aren’t sentimental and if the progress halts then they won’t be afraid to make changes where necessary. They’re also clever enough to realise that progress needs time and patience. They demonstrated this when they didn’t pull the trigger last season and have so far been rewarded. 

Let’s all enjoy the ride. 

[DaveAV1]

11 minutes ago, VillanousOne said:

With or even without Jack, we push most of our attacking threat down the left and teams reduce that space and mark in numbers and we lose our attacking shape.

For some reason both Cash and Traore seem to get very little width either, I lost count how many times the ball would go to Cash or Traore then get passed back in field or backwards vs Fulham (granted Traore found some space late on when the subs were made).

I think the fact we get shut down so easily on the wings wouldn't be so bad if we had any attacking threat down the middle (aside from Grealish).
 

I agree but I think it’s due to a lack of quality in wide positions that’s the problem. Traore is probably the best of the bunch, if you don’t count Jack, but he’s very hit and miss. Hopefully that will improve as he settles in. More investment needed out wide in my opinion though. 

[lexicon]

58 minutes ago, VillanousOne said:

With or even without Jack, we push most of our attacking threat down the left and teams reduce that space and mark in numbers and we lose our attacking shape.

For some reason both Cash and Traore seem to get very little width either, I lost count how many times the ball would go to Cash or Traore then get passed back in field or backwards vs Fulham (granted Traore found some space late on when the subs were made).

I think the fact we get shut down so easily on the wings wouldn't be so bad if we had any attacking threat down the middle (aside from Grealish).
 

When those two get in their flow, they're absolutely fine. Not the problem at all. 

The issue for me isn't the wings, it's the middle. We don't create enough in the CAM space, save for what Grealish does.

[DaveAV1]

1 minute ago, lexicon said:

When those two get in their flow, they're absolutely fine. Not the problem at all. 

The issue for me isn't the wings, it's the middle. We don't create enough in the CAM space, save for what Grealish does.

I think we do need improvements in wide forward positions but you’re right we’re weak in midfield. We just don’t control the game from the middle of the pitch and Jack aside creativity is seriously lacking. 

[lexicon]

1 minute ago, DaveAV1 said:

I think we do need improvements in wide forward positions but you’re right we’re weak in midfield. We just don’t control the game from the middle of the pitch and Jack aside creativity is seriously lacking. 

If we had 2 more players of Traore's level, we'd be laughing - as it is, we have Trez and AEG who aren't consistent enough.