Dean Smith

[DCJonah]

27 minutes ago, TRO said:

Now state the obvious.....phew!!!

Is it not? 

[TRO]

1 hour ago, blandy said:

Like all teams we do that. Man City the least, then Liverpool and Chelsea down to West Brom, Burnley and Newcastle the most, with Villa mid table in terms of keeping possession.

Interestingly, we had our lowest possession in the 7-2 win v Liverpool (30% ish) and the highest 72% against Sheffield Utd at home. Normally (on average we're 50% or thereabouts, with the best sides being 60% and the worst just under 40%. West Ham are the anomaly, doing well, but with only 40% on average. 

I had to look all that up, obviously. And the reason I did is because there's (again) this thing with supporters (me included) of seeing a player, or players, or team "give the ball away" and getting overly frustrated. The best teams have the best players who are the best players because they are the most consistent and often also the most talented and best coached. I think where we are is a well coached side, that endeavours to play attractive football, but because of last season has also learnt how to defend much better.

Fulham and Leeds are good to watch, but they don't half let goals in, in part because they've been terrible at defending for much of the season. Burnley defend well, but don't keep the ball, so they have to.

I think where I'm going with this is that until or unless we improve the overall squad quality, we're all going to have games where sloppy play annoys us. But from my perspective, it's not a manager thing with Villa. We've all seen how the manager likes to play, which is an attacking games that does take risks with the ball at times, but tries to keep possession. Bruce, Dyche, Allardyce and Hodgson set up differently. Their player play systems and tactics that don't involve the same risk v reward gambles. They play a more turgid style, bluntly. Through necessity (Dyche) or pragmatism (Hodgson) or just ingrained methodology (Bruce and Allardyce).

The Dean Smith way is (for me) a better way and I accept that the human beings asked to play for him have bad games, make mistakes and all that. But they also are players who try to learn and improve and do better. I don't blame, at all, ball retention problems on the manager. I put it down to both opposition pressure and player ability/fatigue/confidence really. If I observe a player keep doing it, giving the ball away, I don't even blame the player. Sure it's his fault, but if they do as best they can, then that's enough for me. I'm not really into getting mad at players, or all this "sell him he's crap" stuff that you see after any bad performance. Judgements should be (IMO) over time, not a short rocky patch. So the most important thing from my perspective is "give people time" don't worry, then about steps in time, just at the end of a decent period, work out if they're the right person to continue - players, managers, whoever.

Agree with most of that....just a few points, from my perspective

• I don't think West Ham are an Anomaly....I think Declan Rice and Soucek are their engine room and give them a platform for consistency....I think they are the catalyst to West Ham, despite Lingards good form.
• I think The Liverpool game was a one off, that will not be repeated next season.
• I have not studied stats, but I think even accepting other teams doing it, we give the ball away too much too cheaply, particulary in this dip in form, but I generally accept your reasoning, despite it does P me off....because IMV it happens too much.
• Players do have bad games, its the regularity that comes in to question.
• I too am like you, I like the way Dean sets up....but overall, I am like Roy Keane, winning is the holy grail....its what good teams who cover all the disciplines do well.
• It doesn't matter, who you blame for the ball retention problems, its not the point.....the point is they have to improve in order to progress.
• The defence has come on leaps and bounds, but I do not accept that giving the ball away in the manner described is a trade off for stylish football, it happens we all know that, but sloppy play leads to nowhere and too much leads to anxiety, for all concerned.
•  I do also accept the point Nick made of players not doing what I want them to do, that is quality as he described.....but we can address that.

Having said all That, I think Dean is the right man to improve us....That is a caveat to anyone who wants to think its a back door way of saying get rid of Smith.... I am very Happy to continue with Dean for some time yet.

Edited April 2, 2021 by TRO

[Tomaszk]

3 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

If you can't enjoy years like this, given our recent history, and have to look for every little thing that's negative then I feel sorry for you guys. What enjoyment do you get from being a villa fan. 

Football is a way for some people to vent. Yes, they watch it to moan. That's OK if they want to; I agree, you have to ask what enjoyment comes from it, but it is fine if people really want to. It translates better at live games than reading it written down in black and white and watching the team on TV. Think of all the daft shouts of frustration you hear when you're sat in the ground.

Most of the last 10 years has been like having your football team taken away. Nothing to look forward to and no end in sight. Then the immediate last few have been glorious success, caveated with a horrible sicky feeling that every game was so utterly crucial it felt like you were going to die every time we conceded possession.

I'm really enjoying liking the club, the team and the manager and not thinking it's the end of the world when we don't win a match.

Smith's time will come to an end at some point, don't worry critics. One man who certainly enjoys having the current manager in charge is one of the best players in the world and remarkably plays for Aston Villa. IMO if we were to sack Smith tomorrow, a Grealish transfer request would be a hell of a lot more likely come the summer.

[TRO]

13 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

Defending the best manager we've had in years from over the top criticism. Yes, what a terrible fan I must be. 

Haha I genuinely can't work out why some of you are so desperate to have a moan. 

It was the same when MON was here. There was a section of fans who could enjoy being a team challenging for the top 4. If you can't enjoy years like this, given our recent history, and have to look for every little thing that's negative then I feel sorry for you guys. What enjoyment do you get from being a villa fan. 

A "stitch in time saves nine"......If you deal with the detail, the big stuff takes care of itself.....if you don't, a great hole appears....not saying thats where we are, just in case you think that.

Who said you are a terrible fan?...just a terrible poster.....that is a joke, its not meant at all, but I left it there ,as an icebreaker.

I was never overly fussed about Martin O'Neills offerings, some great moments from some great players, sure....and 6-6-6 who would not be happy with that, but at home it was not as Good as Deans football IMO.(excluding this dip in form) away was just smash & Grab, but effective, I guess.

Moaning and constructive criticism is a whole different ball game.

 

[Stratvillan]

8 minutes ago, Tomaszk said:

IMO if we were to sack Smith tomorrow, a Grealish transfer request would be a hell of a lot more likely come the summer.

This is spot on. If we want to keep Grealish we need to keep what makes Villa more attractive than simply being a fan.

The players

The manager

The prospect of bringing in new "quality" players.

The foundations of this is Smith. That's partially why Konsa etc are signing new contracts. 

[osmark86]

2 minutes ago, TRO said:

A "stitch in time saves nine"......If you deal with the detail, the big stuff takes care of itself.....if you don't, a great hole appears....not saying thats where we are, just in case you think that.

Who said you are a terrible fan?...just a terrible poster.....that is a joke, its not meant at all, but I left it there ,as an icebreaker.

I was never overly fussed about Martin O'Neills offerings, some great moments from some great players, sure....and 6-6-6 who would not be happy with that, but at home it was not as Good as Deans football IMO.(excluding this dip in form) away was just smash & Grab, but effective, I guess.

Moaning and constructive criticism is a whole different ball game.

 

Agreed. And tbf you always tend towards the latter of the two. I think DC is more sick of the posters who write bile in a loudmouthy fashion at every opportunity than posters like yourself. And honestly, it's pretty tiresome to see a constant stream of negativity sometimes, where's the joie de vivre in that? Some of us would just want a little less of "S@cK hiS ASSS!" after a defeat. I mean people understand losses are inevitable right?

[TRO]

9 minutes ago, Tomaszk said:

Football is a way for some people to vent. Yes, they watch it to moan. That's OK if they want to; I agree, you have to ask what enjoyment comes from it, but it is fine if people really want to. It translates better at live games than reading it written down in black and white and watching the team on TV. Think of all the daft shouts of frustration you hear when you're sat in the ground.

Most of the last 10 years has been like having your football team taken away. Nothing to look forward to and no end in sight. Then the immediate last few have been glorious success, caveated with a horrible sicky feeling that every game was so utterly crucial it felt like you were going to die every time we conceded possession.

I'm really enjoying liking the club, the team and the manager and not thinking it's the end of the world when we don't win a match.

Smith's time will come to an end at some point, don't worry critics. One man who certainly enjoys having the current manager in charge is one of the best players in the world and remarkably plays for Aston Villa. IMO if we were to sack Smith tomorrow, a Grealish transfer request would be a hell of a lot more likely come the summer.

Wow....one way of interpreting things....no thought going in to the views then, just a good old moan, hey.

There is not one exclusive moaning club here as you see it.....it may have passed your attention, but some posters who favour to express their feelings on our current short comings, do not always agree on everything its not a unanimous club, which is inferred.

But it does seem that those who get frustrated, by the critique, do seem to bang a single drum.

funny that, isn't it.

[Tomaszk]

5 minutes ago, TRO said:

Wow....one way of interpreting things....no thought going in to the views then, just a good old moan, hey.

There is not one exclusive moaning club here as you see it.....it may have passed your attention, but some posters who favour to express their feelings on our current short comings, do not always agree on everything its not a unanimous club, which is inferred.

But it does seem that those who get frustrated, by the critique, do seem to bang a single drum.

funny that, isn't it.

You must have heard some good nonsense shouts from the bloke sat next to you at a game though.

[TRO]

35 minutes ago, osmark86 said:

Agreed. And tbf you always tend towards the latter of the two. I think DC is more sick of the posters who write bile in a loudmouthy fashion at every opportunity than posters like yourself. And honestly, it's pretty tiresome to see a constant stream of negativity sometimes, where's the joie de vivre in that? Some of us would just want a little less of "S@cK hiS ASSS!" after a defeat. I mean people understand losses are inevitable right?

Thanks....but I think DC can speak for himself ( and that is not a put down for your kind response)....but he has never said that and despite my attempts to create balanced posts on here, he has never endorsed any of my comments....so while I accept your reasoning at face value, I am less convinced by his actions.....if you disagree, with just about every opinion a posters has, something more sinsister is inevitably at play.

I cannot think of one poster on here, that I honestly disagree with everything....thats almost impossible, unless another agenda exists.

but thanks for your input, much appreciated and FWIW , I agree with your main point.

Edited April 2, 2021 by TRO

[fruitvilla]

46 minutes ago, villalad21 said:

Not had this spending power since the early years of MON either.
Looking at the fixture list it looks horrendous. Have to play Everton twice as well.
I think a top half finish is very unlikely. Messed up in the "winnable" games and it's catching up to us.

This is quite possibly true ... I don't know.

But the important thing is to find someone to blame.

Oh wait this is the Dean Smith thread. 

[TRO]

3 minutes ago, Tomaszk said:

You must have heard some good nonsense shouts from the bloke sat next to you at a game though.

The bloke sat next to me is Carl Chinn and has a very wide knowledge of the game.....the one on the other side, is my wife....and I am not arguing, with her....without going on a forced diet.

I never, never ever, moan in the ground, because the players can hear it, especially when it becomes unified....that has a negative affect on the game.....I never boo either, players do ,do their best, despite it not being to our satisfaction at times....form can be unpredictable as Blandy rightly said, they are human, not robots.

I am not trying to be a model fan, just responsible for my actions.

However, If I have a gripe or a concern of the way we play, I like to voice it on here, to see, If I am the only one.....its a sounding board.....coaches and the manager do it to each other and they don't always agree.

[DCJonah]

I think it's a myth that people aren't allowed to discuss things that they view as shortcomings. 

The posts that get people defending Dean, is when the critique starts claiming he's holding us back; or demanding that Dean should be rotating or using subs the way they want and we'd have more points; or that the improvements we've made aren't enough, with some ludicrous claims that Europe could have easily been achieved this year. 

My new favourite are the ones that create the doomsday scenarion for it we don't finish top half. 

There's been lots of occasions where posters have made valid points about areas that need improving and I haven't seen people get defensive. But if your criticism is completely over the top, towards a popular manager, who has done so much in such a short time, you can't be surprised people are going to stick up for him and defend it. 

[TRO]

10 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

I think it's a myth that people aren't allowed to discuss things that they view as shortcomings. 

The posts that get people defending Dean, is when the critique starts claiming he's holding us back; or demanding that Dean should be rotating or using subs the way they want and we'd have more points; or that the improvements we've made aren't enough, with some ludicrous claims that Europe could have easily been achieved this year. 

My new favourite are the ones that create the doomsday scenarion for it we don't finish top half. 

There's been lots of occasions where posters have made valid points about areas that need improving and I haven't seen people get defensive. But if your criticism is completely over the top, towards a popular manager, who has done so much in such a short time, you can't be surprised people are going to stick up for him and defend it. 

I cannot agree with you more, if I tried.

but I did exactly that with an exisiting manager and got castigated for defending his football, when in fact I was defending him from abuse.....an existing manager, don't forget at the time.....I was actually resigned to him going at the time he went and it was right too by the club.

I think if you endorsed some of the shortcomings or respectfully disagreed based on your own views, the myth as you described it as, would not exist....maybe you should embrace different views a bit more than you do, just an observation for us all I guess.

I think, if you are honest with yourself, critique is not something that sits comfortable with you, not without emotional attachment anyway......I am fortunate, I can discuss things like that and then cheer the team for 90 odd minutes.....I can divorce the two, but thats just me.

and I will Finally say this......I totally endorse you defending Dean, you do it with passion and that is to your credit.....Bravo.

[briny_ear]

21 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

I think it's a myth that people aren't allowed to discuss things that they view as shortcomings. 

The posts that get people defending Dean, is when the critique starts claiming he's holding us back; or demanding that Dean should be rotating or using subs the way they want and we'd have more points; or that the improvements we've made aren't enough, with some ludicrous claims that Europe could have easily been achieved this year. 

My new favourite are the ones that create the doomsday scenarion for it we don't finish top half. 

There's been lots of occasions where posters have made valid points about areas that need improving and I haven't seen people get defensive. But if your criticism is completely over the top, towards a popular manager, who has done so much in such a short time, you can't be surprised people are going to stick up for him and defend it. 

It must be recorded that most claims that we were going to make Europe this year came from the “Smithistas” a little earlier in the year

[DCJonah]

1 minute ago, TRO said:

I cannot agree with you more, if I tried.

but I did exactly that with an exisiting manager and got castigated for defending his football, when in fact I was defending him from abuse.....an existing manager, don't forget at the time.....I was actually resigned to him going at the time he went and it was right too by the club.

I think if you endorsed some of the shortcomings or respectfully disagreed based on your own views, the myth as you described it as, would not exist....maybe you should embrace different views a bit more than you do, just an observation for us all I guess.

I think, if you are honest with yourself, critique is not something that sits comfortable with you, not without emotional attachment anyway......I am fortunate, I can discuss things like that and then cheer the team for 90 odd minutes.....I can divorce the two, but thats just me.

and I will Finally say this......I totally endorse you defending Dean, you do it with passion and that is to your credit.....Bravo.

I've put plenty of criticism on here for many managers and players, you don't have to patronise me.  And if people felt it was over the top, they let me know. I'm not against criticism. There are many threads on here where I accept a different view, the problem with this thread, is often the different view is based on nothing but dislike for the manager. 

Again, I can respectfully disagree with those posts that aren't over the top. Maybe I've unfairly lumped you in with that crowd at times and for that I apologise. But the bulk of posts that people react to, are the ones I mentioned above. 

No one is going to get defensive about a few people wondering why we can't keep the ball better. But that doesn't happen very often, it usually descends into people claiming their way would get us more points or that Dean has too many weaknesses, despite the excellent work he's done. 

And for the record, whilst I love the bloke, I know full well that with our owners, when he does go, we will attract a top manager. And I also know that when he stops meeting the expectations set on him, he'll be rightly removed. 

[DCJonah]

6 minutes ago, briny_ear said:

It must be recorded that most claims that we were going to make Europe this year came from the “Smithistas” a little earlier in the year

Cute. 

You think up that nickname all by yourself? 

I'm sure you can tell the difference between some positive ambition from fans feeling good and then those that use unrealistic expectations to moan at the manager. 

[Vive_La_Villa]

19 minutes ago, briny_ear said:

It must be recorded that most claims that we were going to make Europe this year came from the “Smithistas” a little earlier in the year

In my experience the fans that get over excited when things are going well are normally the same fans that think it’s the end of the world after a few defeats. They raise their own expectation levels. 

Edited April 2, 2021 by Vive_La_Villa

[Tommo_b]

Wouldn’t write Europe off just yet regardless, still 30 points to play for. 

[blandy]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

I don't think West Ham are an Anomaly....I think Declan Rice and Soucek are their engine room and give them a platform for consistency....I think they are the catalyst to West Ham, despite Lingards good form.

They've got some good players, but they absolutely are an anomaly in terms of they gain (this season) excellent results but on average have a low percentage of possession - 41% with only the struggling sides down the bottom being worse - Shelf U, Palace, Burnley, Newcastle and the Olbeyun.

here

Quote

	West Ham United	42.0 %	39.7 %	59.0 %		2:1		27.6 %		2:1		40.9 %
	Sheffield United	44.0 %	37.7 %	68.3 %		2:1		24.3 %		1:2		40.8 %
	Crystal Palace	42.0 %	39.1 %	60.9 %		3:0		24.0 %		1:3		40.6 %
	Burnley FC	39.7 %	39.8 %	54.8 %		1:0		25.7 %		0:2		39.8 %
	Newcastle United	43.3 %	36.0 %	61.3 %		1:2		24.4 %		2:0		39.7 %
	West Bromwich Albion	38.0 %	38.7 %	56.6 %		0:0		21.9 %		1:1		38.4 %

Villa are much better, with 49.1%, like I said.

[briny_ear]

3 hours ago, TRO said:

The bloke sat next to me is Carl Chinn and has a very wide knowledge of the game.....the one on the other side, is my wife....and I am not arguing, with her....without going on a forced diet.

I never, never ever, moan in the ground, because the players can hear it, especially when it becomes unified....that has a negative affect on the game.....I never boo either, players do ,do their best, despite it not being to our satisfaction at times....form can be unpredictable as Blandy rightly said, they are human, not robots.

I am not trying to be a model fan, just responsible for my actions.

However, If I have a gripe or a concern of the way we play, I like to voice it on here, to see, If I am the only one.....its a sounding board.....coaches and the manager do it to each other and they don't always agree.

Wow,  @TRO, is that THE Carl Chinn? Professor of Community History at Birmingham Uni? I’m a big fan of his, and also very grateful that he started the campaign to create a memorial in St Martins churchyard to the victims of the Luftwaffe bombings of August 1940, in which 5 of my ancestors died.

If you ever get back to your seat, can you tell him he has a big fan on Villatalk?

Sorry if this is a bit off topic but I hope more interesting than the dreary rantings of some of the posters very active on here today.

Edited April 2, 2021 by briny_ear