Dean Smith

[YouUnastanFren]

5 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

If we are honest, all fans are "fickle' to some degree.

It's basically a semantics debate but I don't agree. AFAIK something being fickle means that it is prone to change frequently or at short notice so only people basing their opinion on whether or not to sack a manager on a tiny sample size of games would be fickle.

[mykeyb]

On 02/04/2021 at 20:01, DCJonah said:

I think it's a myth that people aren't allowed to discuss things that they view as shortcomings. 

The posts that get people defending Dean, is when the critique starts claiming he's holding us back; or demanding that Dean should be rotating or using subs the way they want and we'd have more points; or that the improvements we've made aren't enough, with some ludicrous claims that Europe could have easily been achieved this year. 

Thanks for defining the critical areas we are allowed to bring up. So team selection, tactics and training are allowed?

[paul514]

7 hours ago, YouUnastanFren said:

It's basically a semantics debate but I don't agree. AFAIK something being fickle means that it is prone to change frequently or at short notice so only people basing their opinion on whether or not to sack a manager on a tiny sample size of games would be fickle.

I agree, unless someone has a massive history of success think of Fergie for example who was basically unquestionable overall if they had a bad game, sold someone good, brought someone crap or failed to win anything that season it’s impossible to change the opinion without something bad happening over a very long period.

in the other 99% of cases it’s just fans judging what the management has been doing for the last 3 months to a couple of years.

[paul514]

8 hours ago, barry'sboots said:

Of course, better players help with possession and spending a £1bn plus, like Citeh have, should mean that you have better players that can hold on to the ball.  However, I would imagine that Leicester don't have much better possession stats than us but they are better at using it more effectively, just as we were at the start of the season.  I think we need to be able to play different ways against different teams and think that's where we struggle because Dean likes to play his way and doesn't like to vary it much.

I gave one example of Dean's lack of flex in his tactics - the West Ham game.  Coufal had Jack in his pocket and there was another right back (forget his name) playing in front of him.  It was crying out for Jack to switch to the right/centre i.e. to get away from Coufal/break Moyes' plan.  We didn't do it until towards the 70th minute and scored shortly thereafter from a cross from Jack on the right.  One very clear example.  It was not rocket science.  This is down to the coaching staff.  

I am hopeful that he can develop this flexibility over the next few years.  I am sure that this can become easier as the squad is padded out but we need to buy the right players that allow that flexibility rather than buying like for like.

You do also need the players to be able to play different systems as well. This requires some players to be added to the squad... I too get annoyed with the failure to make obvious changes in games like the one you mentioned or earlier subs on occasion.

[OutByEaster?]

Right then folks - this thread needs to be about the manager - lets keep it about Deam Smith and not about each other. 

Thank you.

 

[nick76]

Coolio.

Let’s change tact.  Who was the last Villa manager that was better than Dean Smith and why?

This is not about who was the best Villa manager ever, this is about who was the last manager we had that you feel was better than Smith and justify.  It’s not a gotcha question, just to start a new debate.

Genuine question, this is not pro or anti Smith....I’m genuinely intrigued.

You may have been a fan of Bruce, so 1 back manager, it may take you a bit further to Little or if you feel Smith is doing a really good job back to Saunders.  I’m interested and you need to justify, however that is....stats, cups, progression whatever as long as you can justify rather than purely general feeling or like/dislike of Smith.

[cheltenham_villa]

7 minutes ago, nick76 said:

Coolio.

Let’s change tact.  Who was the last Villa manager that was better than Dean Smith and why?

This is not about who was the best Villa manager ever, this is about who was the last manager we had that you feel was better than Smith and justify.  It’s not a gotcha question, just to start a new debate.

Genuine question, this is not pro or anti Smith....I’m genuinely intrigued.

You may have been a fan of Bruce, so 1 back manager, it may take you a bit further to Little or if you feel Smith is doing a really good job back to Saunders.  I’m interested and you need to justify, however that is....stats, cups, progression whatever as long as you can justify rather than purely general feeling or like/dislike of Smith.

I'll go brave and say MON. I've heard all the arguments about ageing players, expensive purchases but 3 6th place finishes, Wembley trips and European journeys are a level of success we dream of for Deano.

[sne]

9 minutes ago, nick76 said:

Coolio.

Let’s change tact.  Who was the last Villa manager that was better than Dean Smith and why?

This is not about who was the best Villa manager ever, this is about who was the last manager we had that you feel was better than Smith and justify.  It’s not a gotcha question, just to start a new debate.

Genuine question, this is not pro or anti Smith....I’m genuinely intrigued.

You may have been a fan of Bruce, so 1 back manager, it may take you a bit further to Little or if you feel Smith is doing a really good job back to Saunders.  I’m interested and you need to justify, however that is....stats, cups, progression whatever as long as you can justify rather than purely general feeling or like/dislike of Smith.

Scott Marshall 100% record 

[DCJonah]

33 minutes ago, cheltenham_villa said:

I'll go brave and say MON. I've heard all the arguments about ageing players, expensive purchases but 3 6th place finishes, Wembley trips and European journeys are a level of success we dream of for Deano.

Yeah I'd agree. No manager since MON can come close to Deano. 

I'd also say that what Deano has achieved will have a much bigger long term impact on the club that anything MON did. 

Getting us up, keeping us up and moving away from any relegation worries in 3 years, sets the foundations for what comes next. 

[villa4europe]

MON at his best id say yeah probably but Mon at his worst... Smith is better 

It got to the point where we were achieving things almost in spite of MON, he was worse at subs, worse for favourites and worse for no plan B

But plan A when it worked was so much fun

I'd say the first 11 now are very similar in quality 

Edit - I think both of them at their worst have a terrible midfield that looks like it couldn't string 3 passes together, for both of them when the chip are down the midfield goes missing 

Edited April 4, 2021 by villa4europe

[Dave-R]

1 hour ago, nick76 said:

Coolio.

Let’s change tact.  Who was the last Villa manager that was better than Dean Smith and why?

This is not about who was the best Villa manager ever, this is about who was the last manager we had that you feel was better than Smith and justify.  It’s not a gotcha question, just to start a new debate.

Genuine question, this is not pro or anti Smith....I’m genuinely intrigued.

You may have been a fan of Bruce, so 1 back manager, it may take you a bit further to Little or if you feel Smith is doing a really good job back to Saunders.  I’m interested and you need to justify, however that is....stats, cups, progression whatever as long as you can justify rather than purely general feeling or like/dislike of Smith.

I would say John Gregory and ever since Gregory, football has been down a dark path for us that is until Smith, with a ton of crap managers, owners, having our best taken from us by bigger clubs, just not performing as we should of done. You can easy see the last twenty years and abit more since Gregory left just creeping in slowly but surely which was a very slow decay of us not keeping with the time, lack of money injections and poor management which would lead to our demise and relegation from the premier.

I certainly don't think MON was the last best manager we've had, to me a decent manager sticks it out till he's sacked not leaves because he doesn't like how things are going on. For that reason alone I wouldn't enter MON into that convo and he still pissed me off to this day with how he left us.

I'd say Gregory was our best last manager because of the team he built and the football he had us playing. It was excited, thrilling, lovely sight to see. Teams were scared of what Gregory could have his players doing on the pitch at that moment in time and many clubs had a much better team on paper I reckon. I think Gregory did alot with so little..

Edited April 4, 2021 by Dave-R

[villalad21]

1 hour ago, nick76 said:

Coolio.

Let’s change tact.  Who was the last Villa manager that was better than Dean Smith and why?

This is not about who was the best Villa manager ever, this is about who was the last manager we had that you feel was better than Smith and justify.  It’s not a gotcha question, just to start a new debate.

Genuine question, this is not pro or anti Smith....I’m genuinely intrigued.

You may have been a fan of Bruce, so 1 back manager, it may take you a bit further to Little or if you feel Smith is doing a really good job back to Saunders.  I’m interested and you need to justify, however that is....stats, cups, progression whatever as long as you can justify rather than purely general feeling or like/dislike of Smith.

MON got us into the top 6 on a similar budget. MON hands down, no question for me. (So far)

Neither Lambert, Sherwood nor Garde worked under a similar budget Smith has been handed. I find it hard to compare. Completely different working conditions.

Edited April 4, 2021 by villalad21

[Phil Silvers]

1 hour ago, nick76 said:

Coolio.

Let’s change tact.  Who was the last Villa manager that was better than Dean Smith and why?

This is not about who was the best Villa manager ever, this is about who was the last manager we had that you feel was better than Smith and justify.  It’s not a gotcha question, just to start a new debate.

Genuine question, this is not pro or anti Smith....I’m genuinely intrigued.

You may have been a fan of Bruce, so 1 back manager, it may take you a bit further to Little or if you feel Smith is doing a really good job back to Saunders.  I’m interested and you need to justify, however that is....stats, cups, progression whatever as long as you can justify rather than purely general feeling or like/dislike of Smith.

Smiths story is not over yet, he could eclpise them all.

Saunders, Gregory and Little were

RS was like a swiss watch, desirable, well oiled and very effiecient.

Gregory had the best whistle by far.

Little is just my personal favourite Villa thing ever, a great player and an underrated manager. Had he have got Les Ferdinand instead of Savo and the sweeper he wanted instead of that big nose boob who liked a drink at the weekends and went on to be a failed manager that became England manager (I know, unbelievable, check it, its true) he might have gone on to winning more trophies.

[OutByEaster?]

5 minutes ago, villalad21 said:

MON got us into the top 6 on a similar budget. MON hands down, no question for me. (So far)

I think that's true, but I think the game has moved on in the decade since O'Neill. The Premier league's riches now mean you've got to be amongst the best 15 clubs in the world in order to finish seventh here - getting into the top six is becoming incredibly difficult, it's not guaranteed for Spurs, Arsenal or even Liverpool. It's a helluva league. 

I don't mean that as a knock on O'Neill's achievement, but I think it's a whole lot more difficult now.

 

[villalad21]

2 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

I think that's true, but I think the game has moved on in the decade since O'Neill. The Premier league's riches now mean you've got to be amongst the best 15 clubs in the world in order to finish seventh here - getting into the top six is becoming incredibly difficult, it's not guaranteed for Spurs, Arsenal or even Liverpool. It's a helluva league. 

I don't mean that as a knock on O'Neill's achievement, but I think it's a whole lot more difficult now.

 

I think that's debatable.

I think the top teams were much stronger back in the mid 2000's

[OutByEaster?]

T

4 minutes ago, villalad21 said:

I think the top teams were much stronger back in the mid 2000's

I think they were strong, but there were less of them. For example, in 2007-08 which is one of the peak O'Neill years, Man City finished 9th and Spurs finished 11th. The next year City were 10th and Spurs 8th. Both of those teams are much stronger now, and that's not at the expense of the teams that were already at the top - Chelsea, Man Utd, Liverpool etc. 

The last time we finished in the top 6, Leicester weren't in the Premier league and we finished ahead of Liverpool. Liverpool are undoubtedly stronger and we've added Leicester into the mix - 6th is the new 4th.

 

 

[DCJonah]

26 minutes ago, villalad21 said:

MON got us into the top 6 on a similar budget. MON hands down, no question for me. (So far)

Neither Lambert, Sherwood nor Garde worked under a similar budget Smith has been handed. I find it hard to compare. Completely different working conditions.

Transfer market has changed dramatically since then. 

A player like Ashley Young wouldn't be able to be signed for £10 million in today's market. John Carew would be a £40/£50 million signing. 

[OutByEaster?]

I must say I like Smith's demeanour around the place - he's positive, but he doesn't get too full of himself or too far down based on a  single result, the players seem to like him and he seems to have the trust of the staff. I think having someone calm in place was important for the new regime, he sort of reflects the way the owners are going about things - there's a self assurance even when things aren't great and he doesn't over celebrate small triumphs.

 

[villalad21]

30 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

T

I think they were strong, but there were less of them. For example, in 2007-08 which is one of the peak O'Neill years, Man City finished 9th and Spurs finished 11th. The next year City were 10th and Spurs 8th. Both of those teams are much stronger now, and that's not at the expense of the teams that were already at the top - Chelsea, Man Utd, Liverpool etc. 

The last time we finished in the top 6, Leicester weren't in the Premier league and we finished ahead of Liverpool. Liverpool are undoubtedly stronger and we've added Leicester into the mix - 6th is the new 4th.

 

 

I think any of the top 6 teams back then would wipe the floor with us.

[nick76]

I loved the 90’s with Big Ron, Little and Gregory...we had a chance with the league in 92/93 but we lost the last 3 games and Man U went on a 7 game winning streak and we ended up second 10 points behind them.  Then we went on to win 2 league cups.  Ok it wasnt a trophy laden period but I really enjoyed football and the vibe under those three managers.

I’m still plumping for MON as the last manager because there was bad and good, on-field/off-field but it was nice dreaming something special was going to happen then.  I wasn’t big fan of MON though.

I thought Houllier was going to be something special but his health unfortunately.

In terms of manager I liked and things were happening with the team it would be Gregory. 
 

Maybe that’s why I’m so defensive of Smith because we’ve had a very lean period of managers in the last twenty years that I’ve liked and the team were progressing/doing something.