Israel, Palestine and Iran

[magnkarl]

1 minute ago, Genie said:

For some reason Putin gets a lot more credit for world affairs than he should.

Brexit -> Putin

US Election Results -> Putin

Now war in Israel -> Putin

I don’t think he’s that clever or powerful 

 

It's naive to think that Putin doesn't have goals reaching outside of Ukraine. He's influenced the conservative party, GOP, Iran and Syria for years and years. 

The links between pro-Serbian militia in Kosovo, Iran, Hamas, Hezbollah, Assad and Putin aren't very hard to see. It's also not hard to see the effect of Putins troll farms on Western politics. You won't find a far-right populist party in Europe that haven't received funds or support in some way or another from Putin.

[magnkarl]

On 07/10/2023 at 22:07, Rugeley Villa said:

Hamas is from the school of The Muslim Brotherhood, although Hamas do believe in armed military action against Israel and do not recognise Israel , that doesn’t make them as extreme as some Islamic terrorist organisations. Isis is a spin off from Al Qaeda which have different views about how they go about things compared to The Muslim Brotherhood . Hamas are nationalists where as Al Qaeda and Isis are global terrorist threats. You could say it’s like choosing between being bitten by a Rattlesnake or a Black Mamba. Both hurt and both dangerous but there’s a difference and the one is more of a threat than the other .

So, have you watched videos of Hamas fighters performing ISIS style execution of kids and women yet? Or the videos of them going up a populated motorway and shooting old people covering behind cars yet? There's videos of them driving around the streets of Gaza with naked women in ropes behind their cars. How you can not call a spade a spade just because they're the oppressed is sad. They've now down right executed nationals from 30 countries and counting at a festival. If that isn't the hallmark of an international terrorist organisation then you've lost me.

Not ISIS, but very much like ISIS. This attack will do absolutely nothing for the Palestinian people except for turn more people against them for housing a group like Hamas.

Edited October 9, 2023 by magnkarl

[Mandy Lifeboats]

12 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

I guess having public said they were at war, turning off the power supply to the civilian population would be a war crime?

No.  

It's no different to blowing up bridges, destroying fuel dumps or destroying rail tracks.  

A functioning power system has an obvious military value. 

 

[Chindie]

 

[Jareth]

Is it fair to say that Hamas are just as bad as the IDF? I mean they both murder kids, female and male civilians. Or is there a difference between them based on how they murder people? 

[Rustibrooks]

I now know of 3 people that has friends or families impacted by this conflict. One hasn’t spoke with their uncle who was present for the first attack, so he’s now fearing the worst. The other two have families living in Gaza and both have lost family in the strikes last night/this morning. This is just awful.

[KentVillan]

2 hours ago, Chindie said:

 

Strawman argument because who on earth is saying that for the first time

[Rugeley Villa]

4 hours ago, magnkarl said:

So, have you watched videos of Hamas fighters performing ISIS style execution of kids and women yet? Or the videos of them going up a populated motorway and shooting old people covering behind cars yet? There's videos of them driving around the streets of Gaza with naked women in ropes behind their cars. How you can not call a spade a spade just because they're the oppressed is sad. They've now down right executed nationals from 30 countries and counting at a festival. If that isn't the hallmark of an international terrorist organisation then you've lost me.

Not ISIS, but very much like ISIS. This attack will do absolutely nothing for the Palestinian people except for turn more people against them for housing a group like Hamas.

I wasn’t fully aware what they have been doing past few days. I know they started off as an unarmed group but then became an armed group to fight against Israel . You only have to look at the above chart that’s been posted to see that Palestinians have been the biggest victims in this . I used to be totally anti Muslim by the way, but it’s good to take on board both sides of the argument here. 

[magnkarl]

21 minutes ago, Rugeley Villa said:

I wasn’t fully aware what they have been doing past few days. I know they started off as an unarmed group but then became an armed group to fight against Israel . You only have to look at the above chart that’s been posted to see that Palestinians have been the biggest victims in this . I used to be totally anti Muslim by the way, but it’s good to take on board both sides of the argument here. 

None of that changes what Hamas is though, even though it's been a trend among people as of late to call Hamas some sort of freedom fighting group(Hey Jeremy!), it's about as far from the truth as possible. They took the power from PLO and Fatah who had non-violence as one of their tenets, with the backing of Iran and Hezbollah. The leader of Hamas' armed wing is the mastermind behind several public bombings, school shootings and clear terrorist activity. Iran uses Hamas as some sort of chip in the grander game of keeping Saudi-Israeli tensions high enough to avoid them becoming allies. The charter you are talking about had a hadith in it until 2017, stating 'all Jews will be killed', and that they'll never negotiate, there is only Jihad.

Quote

Article 7 describes Hamas as "one of the links in the chain of the struggle against the Zionist invaders" and claims continuity with the followers of the religious and nationalist hero Izz ad-Din al-Qassam from the Great Arab Revolt as well as the Palestinian combatants of the First Arab-Israeli War. It adds a hadith claiming that at the Day of Judgment all Jews will be killed.[1][28]

Article 13 There is no negotiated settlement possible. Jihad is the only answer.

Hamas is a fundamentalist terrorist organisation who is essentially holding 4 million people hostage on the Gaza strip with a local dictatorship, strict religious laws and indoctrination in schools. They're calling this attack a 'success' and say that they know that there'll be repercussions. They don't give two hoots about the people living there, or else they'd join Fatah and PLO at actually trying to solve this diplomatically. This has put the Palestinian cause back decades and will only continue the long-standing trend of Israeli government becoming more and more aggressive and right wing. The spiral continues.

IDF and Israel has caused the very fertile ground where such extremism occurs, but it doesn't mean that one has to try to explain what Hamas is doing as anything other than terrorism.

Edited October 9, 2023 by magnkarl

[El Segundo]

1 hour ago, magnkarl said:

They don't give two hoots about the people living there, or else they'd join Fatah and PLO at actually trying to solve this diplomatically. 

Has any real progress been achieved by trying to solve this diplomatically? I don't mean being recognised by the UN as an observer state, I mean tangible progress for the Palestinians who consider themselves to be living under occupation and apartheid?  

[bickster]

5 minutes ago, El Segundo said:

Has any real progress been achieved by trying to solve this diplomatically?

Well there is a substantial difference between Israel's attitude towards the West Bank in comparison to Gaza.

[Wainy316]

I note that Hamas are sunni yet supported by Iran.  Is this a marriage of convenience due to a common enemy?

[El Segundo]

25 minutes ago, bickster said:

Well there is a substantial difference between Israel's attitude towards the West Bank in comparison to Gaza.

Ok how is the West Bank treated compared to Gaza and why?    Is it because Hamaz don't operate in/control the West Bank?  And are the Palestinian people there freer and not subject to military checkpoints and (alleged) attacks from Israeli settlers?  Not being an arse, genuinely don't know and interested.

Edited October 9, 2023 by El Segundo

[Jareth]

1 hour ago, magnkarl said:

Hamas is a fundamentalist terrorist organisation who is essentially holding 4 million people hostage on the Gaza strip

Israel are keeping those people hostage. 

[bickster]

6 minutes ago, El Segundo said:

Ok how is the West Bank treated compared to Gaza and why?    Is it because Hamza don't operate in/control the West Bank?  And are the Palestinian people there freer and not subject to military checkpoints and (alleged) attacks from Israeli settlers?  Not being an arse, genuinely don't know and interested.

One has a government that Israel recognises and negotiates with (Fatah) and the other has Hamas, a terrorist organisation funded by Iran. I'm not claiming that Israel isn't treating the West Bank badly but it is treating it substantially differently than it treats the Gaza Strip.

The Gaza Strip is essentially an Iranian Govt backed launch pad for attacks on Israel using the poor Palestinian people who live there as a human shield

[Chindie]

Equivocating and justifying the collective punishment and denigration of a whole people is pretty grim.

Israel treats all Palestinians like shit, running an apartheid regime at best and administering to a couple of open air prisons at worst.

[Rugeley Villa]

1 hour ago, magnkarl said:

None of that changes what Hamas is though, even though it's been a trend among people as of late to call Hamas some sort of freedom fighting group(Hey Jeremy!), it's about as far from the truth as possible. They took the power from PLO and Fatah who had non-violence as one of their tenets, with the backing of Iran and Hezbollah. The leader of Hamas' armed wing is the mastermind behind several public bombings, school shootings and clear terrorist activity. Iran uses Hamas as some sort of chip in the grander game of keeping Saudi-Israeli tensions high enough to avoid them becoming allies. The charter you are talking about had a hadith in it until 2017, stating 'all Jews will be killed', and that they'll never negotiate, there is only Jihad.

Hamas is a fundamentalist terrorist organisation who is essentially holding 4 million people hostage on the Gaza strip with a local dictatorship, strict religious laws and indoctrination in schools. They're calling this attack a 'success' and say that they know that there'll be repercussions. They don't give two hoots about the people living there, or else they'd join Fatah and PLO at actually trying to solve this diplomatically. This has put the Palestinian cause back decades and will only continue the long-standing trend of Israeli government becoming more and more aggressive and right wing. The spiral continues.

IDF and Israel has caused the very fertile ground where such extremism occurs, but it doesn't mean that one has to try to explain what Hamas is doing as anything other than terrorism.

I’ve never said they weren’t a terrorist organisation. All I said was they are from a different school to isis although what you’ve pointed out to me today(sorry not been watching news) indicates they have more in common with Isis than first thought.  Israel the US and Uk have been a great recruitment agency for these groups, but yes Islamic terrorism is a problem in many parts in f the world and would still exist without the  help of Israel and US. 

Edited October 9, 2023 by Rugeley Villa

[Rugeley Villa]

It’s complete bonkers. I remember Isis declaring war on Al Qaeda the other year. 

[El Segundo]

8 minutes ago, bickster said:

One has a government that Israel recognises and negotiates with (Fatah) and the other has Hamas, a terrorist organisation funded by Iran. I'm not claiming that Israel isn't treating the West Bank badly but it is treating it substantially differently than it treats the Gaza Strip.

The Gaza Strip is essentially an Iranian Govt backed launch pad for attacks on Israel using the poor Palestinian people who live there as a human shield

Thanks for the clarification.  I've just checked though and it seems Hamas was democratically elected on a manifesto to end the occupation using armed resistance. So is it fair to say that the Gaza Palestinians (or an electoral majority at least) are not victims of Hamas but rather proponents of them?     

[CVByrne]

5 hours ago, Jareth said:

Is it fair to say that Hamas are just as bad as the IDF? I mean they both murder kids, female and male civilians. Or is there a difference between them based on how they murder people? 

I suppose going in to specifically target and murder innocent people is different from wanting to kill your enemy and accepting the deaths of innocents as "collateral damage".