Israel, Palestine and Iran

[Genie]

I see electing George Galloway has STILL not had the desired effect of ending the war in Gaza.

In fact I think since he won the local election things have got worse over there. He should be questioned in the HoC about what he’s doing and why things have escalated.

[blandy]

10 minutes ago, Genie said:

I see electing George Galloway has STILL not had the desired effect of ending the war in Gaza.

In fact I think since he won the local election things have got worse over there. He should be questioned in the HoC about what he’s doing and why things have escalated.

This may be a slightly obtuse point, but anyway, here it is. Remember there were all these people arguing about the words in, and the calls for, parliamentary votes on a ceasefire/humanitarian pause and all that? Then, eventually all the MPs did calls for the frightfulness to stop. I expect they feel all the happier for their righteousness. But rather oddly it made absolutely no difference to anything at all and Israel carried on with its war criming and collective punishment and barbarity, like they completely don’t listen or take any notice of what UK MPs say or vote on.  So George the shill isn’t going to have any luck there either. Still he’s got a few quid out of being an MP for a bit, again, so there’s that.

[Genie]

20 minutes ago, blandy said:

This may be a slightly obtuse point, but anyway, here it is. Remember there were all these people arguing about the words in, and the calls for, parliamentary votes on a ceasefire/humanitarian pause and all that? Then, eventually all the MPs did calls for the frightfulness to stop. I expect they feel all the happier for their righteousness. But rather oddly it made absolutely no difference to anything at all and Israel carried on with its war criming and collective punishment and barbarity, like they completely don’t listen or take any notice of what UK MPs say or vote on.  So George the shill isn’t going to have any luck there either. Still he’s got a few quid out of being an MP for a bit, again, so there’s that.

I just liked the idea of him being grilled in Westminster about why things are worse now just so he was forced to admit he has absolutely no power over what is happening.

[chrisp65]

42 minutes ago, blandy said:

This may be a slightly obtuse point, but anyway, here it is. Remember there were all these people arguing about the words in, and the calls for, parliamentary votes on a ceasefire/humanitarian pause and all that? Then, eventually all the MPs did calls for the frightfulness to stop. I expect they feel all the happier for their righteousness. But rather oddly it made absolutely no difference to anything at all and Israel carried on with its war criming and collective punishment and barbarity, like they completely don’t listen or take any notice of what UK MPs say or vote on.  So George the shill isn’t going to have any luck there either. Still he’s got a few quid out of being an MP for a bit, again, so there’s that.

I guess maybe vague words of caution haven’t been as effective as actually not assisting genocide.

Maybe as well as suggesting we are getting close to the point where we could begin to get annoyed, the government could stop helping.

Just a limp wristed liberal idea, I probably just don’t understand enough about politics.

[blandy]

23 minutes ago, Genie said:

forced to admit he has absolutely no power over what is happening.

None of them do.

[omariqy]

The US President has no power, never mind our local MPs.

[Genie]

4 minutes ago, omariqy said:

The US President has no power, never mind our local MPs.

I think he’s the only person who can stop it personally. 

[blandy]

1 minute ago, chrisp65 said:

I guess maybe vague words of caution haven’t been as effective as actually not assisting genocide.

That’s the point. Parliament debating what words of very strong or very weak words of “Stop it you monster”, for Netanyahu to completely ignore is all very liberal and democratic…and almost entirely performative.

There is no (publicly available) information or evidence that the UK is assisting genocide. We’ve certainly not condemned it, which is offensive to many people, including me and most of the uk, and that’s sad for us liberal folk over here.

In terms of arms sales, as has been posted previously, we sell them almost nothing that goes bang, or launches things that go bang. Bits for radars, and then we sell America bits of the F35 and some displays for F16s that they then sell to Israel as completed fighter jets. The thing is, if we stopped that today, it makes no difference either. It’s a token gesture. We probably should and we probably won’t. Israel gets pretty much all its wooshbangs from America and Germany and its own manufacturers. We’re not a player to anything other than to a tiny extent.  It’s also the case that, acknowledging Israel is governed by a horrendous amalgam of right wing extremists and a crooked monster, forged together by the Hamas attacks) that under more normal times Israel is surrounded by nations and groups who want to eliminate it and it therefore needs to have the means to defend itself. Iran, Hamas, Hezbollah and the rest are as genocidal in mentality as Israel has become.

The irony is that Israel has undone, for a generation(s) the progress that was happening towards a better relationship with its neighbours in the way it has reacted to Iran’s and Hamas’s “initiative” on 7 October.

[Chindie]

The current US President has a record on Israel that suggests there's not a line Israel could cross that he wouldn't excuse.

[Chindie]

1 minute ago, blandy said:

That’s the point. Parliament debating what words of very strong or very weak words of “Stop it you monster”, for Netanyahu to completely ignore is all very liberal and democratic…and almost entirely performative.

There is no (publicly available) information or evidence that the UK is assisting genocide. We’ve certainly not condemned it, which is offensive to many people, including me and most of the uk, and that’s sad for us liberal folk over here.

In terms of arms sales, as has been posted previously, we sell them almost nothing that goes bang, or launches things that go bang. Bits for radars, and then we sell America bits of the F35 and some displays for F16s that they then sell to Israel as completed fighter jets. The thing is, if we stopped that today, it makes no difference either. It’s a token gesture. We probably should and we probably won’t. Israel gets pretty much all its wooshbangs from America and Germany and its own manufacturers. We’re not a player to anything other than to a tiny extent.  It’s also the case that, acknowledging Israel is governed by a horrendous amalgam of right wing extremists and a crooked monster, forged together by the Hamas attacks) that under more normal times Israel is surrounded by nations and groups who want to eliminate it and it therefore needs to have the means to defend itself. Iran, Hamas, Hezbollah and the rest are as genocidal in mentality as Israel has become.

The irony is that Israel has undone, for a generation(s) the progress that was happening towards a better relationship with its neighbours in the way it has reacted to Iran’s and Hamas’s “initiative” on 7 October.

A lot of high ranking legal professionals disagree with you, irrespective of how little we do or don't sell to Israel. We sell them stuff that quite clearly is 'in danger' of being used to eradicate a people, and that's against the law.

We soil ourselves being associated with them.

[blandy]

Just now, Chindie said:

The current US President has a record on Israel that suggests there's not a line Israel could cross that he wouldn't excuse.

Yeah. Though it’s not simply just him. Their whole set up is deeply protective and supportive of Israel and has been for a very long time. Biden really detests Netanyahu, whereas Trump likes him and enabled him to go further away from 2 state settlement.  And congress wants to send aid (why?, what for?) to Israel and sell them a who ton more bombs and planes.  It’s mad.

[villa89]

4 minutes ago, blandy said:

Yeah. Though it’s not simply just him. Their whole set up is deeply protective and supportive of Israel and has been for a very long time. 

Political donations/support from the Jewish lobby are hugely important. 

[blandy]

Just now, Chindie said:

A lot of high ranking legal professionals disagree with you, irrespective of how little we do or don't sell to Israel. We sell them stuff that quite clearly is 'in danger' of being used to eradicate a people, and that's against the law.

We soil ourselves being associated with them.

I’ve read that we’re not permitted to sell arms to a nation doing war crimes. I’ve read that planes which contain (as I said) uk made components have been used to bomb civilians. Those parts were sold before the October attacks that set this whole genocide off. I’ve tried to find out if or what we’re currently or since October selling to Israel, but it seems to be being kept from us. Up until October it was a tiny amount in relative terms, given the cost of kit. 40 million a year or so. That’ll pay for a few HUDs and a bit of a radar. The way it works if  we stop allowing exports is that if (say) a Head Up Display is sent back to Rochester for repair, or of a radar breaks and requires someone from the uk to fix it in situ, the bod can’t go and do that and the HUD can’t be sent back to Israel. The F35 is more legally complicated. We make the empennage (rear fuselage) in the uk. The parts are then sent off to be assembled into planes. I don’t know whether a uk block on the subsequent export of “our” part of it to Israel can be enforced without US cooperation.  America is the key to ending this, if Israel continues with it’s current government.

[Chindie]

7 minutes ago, blandy said:

Yeah. Though it’s not simply just him. Their whole set up is deeply protective and supportive of Israel and has been for a very long time. Biden really detests Netanyahu, whereas Trump likes him and enabled him to go further away from 2 state settlement.  And congress wants to send aid (why?, what for?) to Israel and sell them a who ton more bombs and planes.  It’s mad.

Of course it's not just him. Israel's reliance on US support and the US' psychotic desire to give it at all costs is well known, as is the extent to which pro-Israel money is in the US system - one of the big stories leading up to their election is the massive injection of money into pro-Israel lobbying groups who are looking to remove anyone not sufficiently pro-Israel to a near unprecedented extent.

I comment on Biden simply to point out that he's not someone on the moderate (for America) side of Israeli support - his record shows him to be a zealot in Israeli matters and thus any idea that he's going to pull the leash, even if he doesn't like Netanyahu, is forlorn.

[blandy]

1 minute ago, Chindie said:

his record shows him to be a zealot in Israeli matters and thus any idea that he's going to pull the leash, even if he doesn't like Netanyahu, is forlorn.

I think I see it as slightly less forlorn, though that’s a minor quibble.  If US public opinion continues to move the way it is, then with the election coming up and his distaste for Netanyahu, he might pull the leash, if not completely then much tighter. The US establishment is seriously pissed off with BN.

[chrisp65]

We have UK passport holders that have gone over there to assist the IDF. 

We sell £500Million a year in millitary stuff.

There is nothing we can do?

Then we might as well pack up any international relations, any humanitarian law, any overseas aid and just hope thew world goes away and the small boats stop arriving.

[Chindie]

7 minutes ago, blandy said:

I’ve read that we’re not permitted to sell arms to a nation doing war crimes. I’ve read that planes which contain (as I said) uk made components have been used to bomb civilians. Those parts were sold before the October attacks that set this whole genocide off. I’ve tried to find out if or what we’re currently or since October selling to Israel, but it seems to be being kept from us. Up until October it was a tiny amount in relative terms, given the cost of kit. 40 million a year or so. That’ll pay for a few HUDs and a bit of a radar. The way it works if  we stop allowing exports is that if (say) a Head Up Display is sent back to Rochester for repair, or of a radar breaks and requires someone from the uk to fix it in situ, the bod can’t go and do that and the HUD can’t be sent back to Israel. The F35 is more legally complicated. We make the empennage (rear fuselage) in the uk. The parts are then sent off to be assembled into planes. I don’t know whether a uk block on the subsequent export of “our” part of it to Israel can be enforced without US cooperation.  America is the key to ending this, if Israel continues with it’s current government.

Surprisingly, I'm aware of all of this, in a prior job I had to be trained on export legalities that included a significant section on military and military adjacent products.

It's obvious we can't 'unsell' things, and it's clear we're a smaller player in Israeli kit as the things we make military wise they buy elsewhere or make themselves in the main (historically I think we sold them some tanks but suspect those have either been superceded or the Israelis outright bought production rights to them) and thus we're probably down to components and perhaps some niche armaments, and therefore they're would be a legal nightmare to be had if our main exposure was bits of stuff that ultimately was a, for instance, US product, but it remains a problem that we are flogging stuff that ultimately is being used to splatter children.

[Chindie]

1 minute ago, chrisp65 said:

We have UK passport holders that have gone over there to assist the IDF. 

We sell £500Million a year in millitary stuff.

There is nothing we can do?

Then we might as well pack up any international relations, any humanitarian law, any overseas aid and just hope thew world goes away and the small boats stop arriving.

Just a correction, it's about £500m over 15 years. In military spending terms it's not much, and largely down to the fact they don't buy much from us in respect of 'finished' items - they don't buy tanks etc from us, they buy components that are used on their own tanks, launchers etc, or those from the Yanks.

It's still not good.

[chrisp65]

Just now, Chindie said:

Just a correction, it's about £500m over 15 years. In military spending terms it's not much, and largely down to the fact they don't buy much from us in respect of 'finished' items - they don't buy tanks etc from us, they buy components that are used on their own tanks, launchers etc, or those from the Yanks.

It's still not good.

 

Which makes it an even easier ‘gesture’ and message.

[Chindie]

2 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

 

Which makes it an even easier ‘gesture’ and message.

Indeed.

The issue though, which no-one will actually say but is definitely making the people that matter twitch, is by making a stand like that it may make future sales to anyone more difficult. If you're in the market for some missile launchers, are you buying from a friendly UK who might screw you over if you choose to use them in a manner the UK finds difficult, or are you buying from Washington who don't give a **** (... unofficially, of course we all follow the rules, cough)?

These laws are right and should be followed, but realistically they aren't expected to be used - you sell to allied nations and 90% of the time that's good enough, and if they do shit themselves to your embarrassment just dither and obfusticate until it goes away.